A Response to ‘Women Against Feminism.’

Imagine this:

The year is 2014. You are a white Western woman. You wake up in the morning in a comfortably sized house or flat. You have a full or part-time job that enables you to pay your rent or mortgage. You have been to school and maybe even college or university as well. You can read and write and count. You own a car or have a driverโ€™s licence. You have enough money in your own bank account to feed and clothe yourself. You have access to the Internet. You can vote. You have a boyfriend or girlfriend of your choosing, who you can also marry if you want to, and raise a family with. You walk down the street wearing whatever you feel like wearing. You can go to bars and clubs and sleep with whomever you want.

Your world is full of freedom and possibility.

Then you pick up a newspaper or go online. You read about angry women ranting about sexism and inequality. You see phrases like โ€˜rape-cultureโ€™ and โ€˜slut-shaming.โ€™ You furrow your brow and think to yourself: โ€˜What are they so angry about? There is no such thing as sexism anymore.โ€™

Now imagine this:

The year is 2013. You are a 25 year-old Pakistani woman. A few months ago, you married the man you love. A man you choose for yourself. You are also pregnant with his child. You see your life stretching out before you, filled with hope and happiness. Suddenly, you and your husband are dragged away from each other. You are both beaten with bricks and batons. You canโ€™t fight back. You canโ€™t escape. No one comes to help you. Through your fading vision, you look up, and look into the eyes of one of your assailants: into the eyes of your father.

The year is 2013. You are a 23 year-old Indian woman. You are a physiotherapy student with a promising career ahead of you. You are sitting on a private bus travelling home alone on a warm December evening. You gaze out of the window as the buildings of New Dheli rush past you and feel content. Suddenly, a blunt force hits the back of your head and you fall to the floor of the bus. A group of strange men are standing over you. They bring the metal bar down on you again and again and again until all you can taste is the blood filling up your mouth. You pray that you will die soon. And you do, but not then. You are raped, beaten, and tortured over and over again. Death is slow and agonising.

The year is 2014. You are a 13 year-old girl from Niger. You no longer live there though. You are now living in the neighbouring country Nigeria, sitting alone in small room on a small bed in a small apartment high above the city of Kano. You are not allowed to leave. Your stomach is swollen from the unwanted life growing inside of it. You had no choice. The father is a man in his 40s. He is a businessman. He has bought you as his wife. You were a penniless, uneducated girl when he came for you. You donโ€™t know of any life you could have had. Neither did your family: just one less mouth for them to feed. You still have the body of a child, and itโ€™s straining under the pressure from the one inside of you. You feel like youโ€™re about to be split in two. You donโ€™t wonder if you will survive the birth. A part of you doesnโ€™t want to.

These are fictionalised accounts of real events that have happened to real women living in our world today. They follow the past 250 years of women and men campaigning for women to be given equal rights to men to prevent these kinds of injustices and abuses on the grounds of gender taking place. Over the course of this time, campaigners โ€“ Feminists, both female and male โ€“ have been locked up, beaten, tortured, and even killed, in the pursuit of equality. They did this with pen and ink and print; they did this with their voices; they did this with their bodies; they did this with art and music; they did in courts of law and halls and houses of government that they fought be to allowed into.

They did this so that women would no longer been seen as property, livestock, breeding machines, sex objects, punching bags, or infantile morons. They did this not just for themselves, but also for their daughters, and their daughters, and their daughters for generations to come. They did this for women they would never meet โ€“ women who lived across countries, across vast oceans, across the entire globe, and even across time.

They did this so that women like me โ€“ a white Western woman โ€“ could attend school and university; to learn to read, write, and think critically; to gain a degree; to get a job and be paid an equal salary to a man in the same position; and to sit here with my own computer and type all of this.

Feminism is a movement for freedom, equality, choice, love, compassion, respect, solidarity, and education. We may argue, we may disagree, we may struggle to understand the choices and perspectives of others sometimes, but these core beliefs of the movement have never changed, and they never will.

That is why I am a Feminist.

If you feel that you have so far lived your life unaffected by even the mildest form of sexism โ€“ anything from feeling uncomfortable when a man catcalls you in the street, to feeling scared walking home alone at night in a secluded area โ€“ and are treated with love and respect by every man in your life, then to you I say: Iโ€™m glad for you. If you donโ€™t think you need feminism, then that is a victory for the movement. You have fulfilled all those dreams that every suffragette being force-fed in prison and every โ€˜witchโ€™ burnt at the stake dreamed you would one day.

But perhaps take a second to consider the life of the Pakistani woman who was beaten to death by her own family for marrying a man of her choosing. Or the life of the Indian woman who was raped, beaten, and murdered on a bus by a gang of men. Or the life of the little girl in Niger who was sold to a man more than twice her own age and forced to carry a baby that may kill her to deliver. Do they still need feminism?

And perhaps take a second to consider this too: Even in our liberal, Western world, why do women still only fill 24% of senior management jobs? Why are more women than men domestically abused or even killed every week at the hands of their male partner or ex-partner? Why is there still a pay gap (in the UK specifically) of 15% for women doing the same jobs and working the same hours as men?

And what about on a cultural level? Have you ever noticed how comedy panel shows usually only have one female panellist compared to 4-5 male ones? That almost every dieting product on the market is solely aimed at women? How a lot of newspapers and advertising campaigns will use a sexualised or pornographic image of a woman to sell news or products that have nothing to do with sex?

Or perhaps on a personal level: Do you choose to wear certain clothes because you want to or because you feel โ€˜unfeminineโ€™ if you donโ€™t? Do you choose to cover yourself up because you want to or because you feel ashamed or intimidated by a man looking at your body? Do you shave your legs and underarm hair because you want to or because you will look โ€˜uglyโ€™ if you donโ€™t? Did you parents dress you in pink as a baby because they liked the colour or because you were born a girl? Do you want to have children because you want to or because you are a woman?

When you look at yourself in the mirror in the morning, do you see yourself through your own eyes, or through the eyes of the men that will look at you when you walk out the door?

The fact is, like it or not, you still live a world where gender matters. Where gender controls not just the entire course of your life โ€“ but the lives of women all over the world. Every second, a child will be born female in a country where she will persecuted for this random biological occurrence for the rest of her life. So before you hold up your anti-Feminist placard proudly and smile at your own sense of empowerment, think not what Feminism can do for you, but what it can do for that one girl. She needs someone to stand up for her. That someone could be you.

UPDATE:ย Click hereย to read my follow up to this article: ‘Equalism: The Feminist Alternative?’


This is a response to ‘Women Against Feminism’ groups on Tumblrย and Facebook.

The stories of the women mentioned in this post were sourced from these sites:

http://feminist.org/blog/index.php/2014/05/29/pakistani-woman-stoned-to-death-for-marrying-a-man-of-her-own-choosing/

http://feminist.org/blog/index.php/2013/01/02/indias-tipping-point-death-of-rape-victim-sparks-global-outrage/

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-27619295

Other facts and statistics were sourced from here:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/international-womens-day-2014-the-shocking-statistics-that-show-why-it-is-still-so-important-9177211.html

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Comments (

1408

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  1. antoninaamico

    Reblogged this on artandtheobjective and commented:
    There are a few reasons in why I disagree with this post. I am not a woman against feminism, I am extremely lucky for what feminism has done for me in the western world.
    I dont feel the necessity of the fight of the western women should be on any level associated with what women and girls from other countries are being subjected to.
    I believe in the fight for equal rights but right here right now in countries where we aren’t stoned to death for who we choose to love and marry. It can wait, because were doing ok

    Liked by 4 people

    1. sharel

      No it can NOT wait, we might be doing okay, but others all across the world are not doing okay. Our ancestors fought to bring about this equality, and now we must fight for others, to give them the same kind of freedom we have here in the western world.

      Liked by 3 people

      1. Steph

        Did you not read this post? They are agreeing that the fight is necessary in other countries but here in the western world it isn’t needed as much. So they are suggesting the people who are fighting for equality take the fight to the countries that need it most.

        Liked by 1 person

      2. mickster66

        Most of what is claimed is untrue, change came about largely due to changes in technology, not feminism. Feminism has promoted the myth of the poor oppressed woman of history for decades now, I notice there’s no mention of the plight of men in these countries, as usual their suffering is ignored by feminism, indeed feminists will blame masculinity (patriarchy) for any and all ills in the world. Women against feminism is a sign of the times, the days of gender ideologues like the author of this piece are numbered and not before time.

        Like

      3. Paraj Puree

        But why do you feminists “fight” here in the western world then? Why don’t you go to the third worlds and do something there? It is not too brave neither effective to be loud and use your big empty phrases on your closed platforms (forums, magazines, etc., whatever you have) in my opinion. I am open minded, please explain it to me what exactly does your “fight” mean. How do you “fight” and what do you achieve?

        Like

      4. reaghanreilly

        I hope the scales drop from your eyes soon. I’m sorry you’re too simple a soul to understand the discussion.

        Like

      5. Michelle

        Steph although I can see where you come from…think about FGM in UK, and we thought we live in 21st Modern Century where woman is respected, educated and treated fairly well. If we follow your argument that ‘so here in the western world isn’t needed as much’, then please at least don’t forget we also live in a multicultural society. You may find it nonsense but the image of women, from both male and female, to how the society sees it, will go a long way dictating how culturally, socially, professionally women should portrait and be seen, what role should they take up and what is considered reasonable to do. It’s easy to think the fruit continues to blossom, but it only does so because there are people fighting for it.

        Like

    2. lucie

      oh, you personally are doing okay so that’s fine then. wow.

      Liked by 1 person

    3. Laura

      Not being stoned to death hardly makes the world a safe and fair place for women. Women are still abused and murdered in their homes everyday in such societies, still typically earn less for equivalent work, sexualised to sell garbage no-one needs, the list goes ever on….

      Like

      1. Traverse Davies

        Thing is, these are largely not gendered crimes you are talking about. To make a focus on one gender and not the other seems to me to be a bad thing. Fight violence, not violence against women. Fight poverty, not women’s poverty, fight disease, not women’s disease. If you are looking at a problem and you see relatively equal rates you should drop the idea that it is gendered (violence actually affects men at a much higher rate than women, why should we focus on ending violence against women again?). The earning less for equivalent work is actually wrong (there is an issue with income disparity, and it is gendered, and women are disadvantaged, but you are fighting the wrong thing…look at why women work less hours on average than men, why women typically choose lower paying fields, etc. There is work to do there, but by still fighting the equivalent work issue you are fighting a fight that is already won).

        Like

      2. Deadly-Bagel

        Women are being abused in other countries, better sue your boyfriend for offering to carry your bags to make the world a better place!

        Seriously is anyone even reading Antoninaamico’s comment? It’s basically saying to take your campaigns to other countries where it’s needed because we’re good here for now. Campaigning for the image of women in a first world country is going to do stuff all for the women you’re basing these arguments off.

        Like

      3. Iliad

        The wage gap is a pervasive myth, both genders are sold shit they don’t need based on individualistic self esteem issues based on sexual commoditization, this has nothing to do with women, and no, women in the west do not have any prevailing requirement for feminism, which worked itself out of a job here decades ago.

        Like

      4. Macy

        PREACH MAMA

        Like

    4. pippd

      Are we doing okay though? In the UK 1 in 4 women will experience some form of rape or other kind of sexual assault in her life. Every week at least 2 women die as a result of domestic violence, and I would predict that it’s nearly 100 percent that have experienced some form of harassment, whether on the street, in a bar, at work or anywhere else. The responsibility for not being attacked is still put on women far more than the responsibility of the men who perpetrate assault and harassment, and as the article says, women are still woefully under represented in politics, sport and media. Not to mention a lot of women who live in the West are still from cultures that are still very oppressive towards women. The fact that there is an anti-FGM campaign at the moment in the UK shows this, as well as the government bringing in a law only two years ago to prevent young British-Asian girls being sent abroad for arranged marriges. You may think we’re doing ‘ok’ but we have miles to go yet for equality.

      Liked by 1 person

    5. Lisa

      The flaw in your thinking is that “we’re doing ok, why get involved with people’s lives who aren’t us” might work if those people aren’t being beaten to death and tortured for expressing their opinion. Men and women alike, but especially women don’t dare to speak out. They need the support from people who can actually speak freely and who have a government that doesn’t encourage such attacks on women. We need to speak out for those who can’t, because they might not be able to fight for what we have already gained.

      Like

    6. Magda

      The problem is that no, we are not doing ok. Women are discriminated against daily. It may seem stupid little things but we are. I am not saying we should go and make a parade because today I felt really uncomfortable when two guys stopped their van and started following me. Or the catcalls. The fact is that you as a woman are still viewed as less by many males and unfortunately other females.

      You see a fat girl with a skinny guy: Oh he must really love her, what a gentle soul.
      You see a fat guy with a skinny girl: Well he must be rich.

      Women are still looked at as dumb, weak and emotional. If you are fine with this, good for you. But don’t say we are ok, because we are not.

      Also maybe you are free to chose your husband, but many people do not have that privilege. Gay people still have to fight for the right to get married. Hell even black and white people still face discrimination if they want to get married to each other. Just because everything is peachy for you does not mean it’s peachy for everyone. You should want the world to be great for everyone not just for you. It’s called empathy and more people should try it.

      Being a feminist is striving for equal rights for everyone. It’s not hating men, it never was about that. And it’s screwed up that from this whole movement of people wanting equality and fighting for so much, the only word many hear is “men”, makes you think.

      I am a feminist but I am not a misandrist, there is a difference and people should learn it instead of spewing uninformed opinions.

      Liked by 1 person

    7. Joey

      Honestly, in the UK gender-equality should be given a secondary priority when we have so many working men and women under the bloody poverty line. Let’s put priorities in fucking order for once.

      I am with the OP comment; there is a significantly greater need in eastern countries less western ones. Giving unilateral importance is to the detriment of women under oppressive outdated regimes.

      I can’t help but feel you should be a humanist before a feminist. With that, your priorities should change depending on severity; a doctor will treat someone who’s just collapsed before the guy who’s walked in with the flu.

      I have noticed that these types of arguments/debates are trending, especially over the last 3-5 years but unfortunately only due to quite stupid immature teenage girls who do nothing to improve how they are viewed(through playing into stereotypes), posting/re-sharing stupid meme-content, etc…. which does NOT further any feminist goal and instead incites negativity towards the movement as a whole, setting it back slowly but surely as these “brats” utilize otherwise emotive content to make themselves feel better about themselves.

      When did feminism become a subsidiary the self-help movement?

      Like

    8. Mav

      Antoninaamico, “I am extremely lucky for what feminism has done for me in the western world.” You weren’t lucky, someone fought for those rights. That’s exactly the point. You weren’t given these rights by it falling out of the sky, or for living somewhere with magic beans and unicorns. And you are no better or different than the women who DON’T have those rights. “I dont feel the necessity of the fight of the western women should be on any level associated with what women and girls from other countries are being subjected to.” These women are losing their lives, but since it isn’t’ in your backyard, you are ok with it. sad.

      Like

    9. Bob

      And what about on a cultural level? Have you ever noticed how comedy panel shows usually only have one female panellist compared to 4-5 male ones? Maybe just maybe they are better commedians? Judging everything on the ratios of men vs women is in my opinion sexist in itself. Maybe there is some social aspect that drives more men to turn to comedy? That almost every dieting product on the market is solely aimed at women? There definately are this is true, but there are differences in the phsiological biuld of men and women. I could argue that there are many more products on the market regarding muscle biulding and fat burning aimed at men. Tablets that men take in order to get the perfect male physique. Gosh is that a sexist comment? No its a fact, women chase a ‘healthy appearence, men chase a ‘healthy appearence’. It just happens these appearences are different, one being slim and petit the other bieng muscle laden man. Do you not see these social pressures exist on both sides of your sex. How a lot of newspapers and advertising campaigns will use a sexualised or pornographic image of a woman to sell news or products that have nothing to do with sex? Lets see, how about that old famous advert for Diet Coke? The one where that guy takes his top off and the group of women druel over him. Open your eyes your tunnel vision of feminism only seems to show you examples that suit your opinion. Infact there are many issues in society putting peer pressure on BOTH sexes to conform to certain values.

      Or perhaps on a personal level: Do you choose to wear certain clothes because you want to or because you feel โ€˜unfeminineโ€™ if you donโ€™t? Terrible comment, I can reverse that completely regarding men. Infact I would say there are more clothes open for a female to wear without upsetting social barriers than men. Can a man walk down the street in your wardrobe? Could you walk down in mine? probably more likely. Do you choose to cover yourself up because you want to or because you feel ashamed or intimidated by a man looking at your body? What do you think drives all these men to spend hours in the gym in the ultimate challenge of getting that diet coke guys body. Peer pressure from girls of the same sex is just as bad if not worse. I suppose that is the mens fault though right? Do you shave your legs and underarm hair because you want to or because you will look โ€˜uglyโ€™ if you donโ€™t? Is your argument so poor that you will walk around with hairy armpits? Fair enough im not going to stop you. No man will pin you down and shave them against your will. You go girl, be free. Did you parents dress you in pink as a baby because they liked the colour or because you were born a girl? My parents dressed me in blue i think I might start ranting on the internet about the injustice of it. Do you want to have children because you want to or because you are a woman? Your an animal, you have evolved this way, get over it. Or dont have a kid. Or adopt one.

      When you look at yourself in the mirror in the morning, do you see yourself through your own eyes, or through the eyes of the men that will look at you when you walk out the door? Do you see yourself through the eyes of all your peers regardless of sex. Will your friends like what your wearing? Surely our friends have more impact on you than random men on the street. Deny it if you will but I think the majority of girls would be more concerned about what the other girls thought about hteir clothes than men on the street.

      The fact is, like it or not, you still live a world where gender matters. Yes this is undeniable, as are the differences in men and women. This will not ever change, I hope it doesnt, the differences between us should be embraced. I agree there are issues between the sexes but the majority of your points are not about sexism, they are about social pressures that exist for everyone. Where gender controls not just the entire course of your life โ€“ but the lives of women all over the world. Every second, a child will be born female in a country where she will persecuted for this random biological occurrence for the rest of her life. So before you hold up your anti-Feminist placard proudly and smile at your own sense of empowerment, think not what Feminism can do for you, but what it can do for that one girl. She needs someone to stand up for her. That someone could be you. The final point yes, there are many countries where women face injustice. INJUSTICE, not the petty points you have raised. When you go out the door tommorow think about the points you have made and whether they only affect women.

      Like

    10. jess

      How about both?

      Like

    11. Teressa

      Totally agree! Who are we to impose our views on other women of the world? Radical change has always come from within the location of oppression (look at every major social and cultural revolution in history). To think that we, as the “enlightened”, need to westernize other parts of the world to our way of thinking is ridiculous and wrong.

      They’ll come around eventually, until then, we’ll focus on our own stuff. ๐Ÿ™‚

      Like

    12. Katie

      Wow. What a strong piece of writing. I am sorry for all the horrors and plights of women across the world however I don’t call myself a feminist either, just a human, for humanity. ๐Ÿ™‚

      Like

    13. Tara

      Wait… wait for what?

      Like

    14. Squirtle

      That’s like saying, “Don’t worry about tossing you’re newspaper in the recycling bin; first we need to prevent unsustainable forestry around the globe”, or “I’m not going to try to get along with people I dislike until we’ve managed to stop all the wars in the world”.
      The bigger picture doesn’t prevent you supporting the smaller issues – the ones that are easiest to change. Equality sets the bar at the highest it can be, don’t settle for anything short.

      Like

    15. Jill Dearest

      I get what you’re saying and agree: the horrendous circumstances the author of this post has used as examples are in breach of very basic human rights, and as such should be fought against. Feminism made sense in the west at the time, but by now is established enough that all the situations described that are to do with inequality, are just that, inequality: same inequality that hits other categories of humans in similar or different ways. It is time to move beyond the fallacy of combating inequality by separating and thus being inequal: we are all humans, we all deserve respect and equal rights, let’s fight for that. Feminism is obsolete.

      Like

    16. Deanna

      But even in this country or in the western world where women are treated somewhat fairly. There are still men who think that they are OWED sex because they were nice to a woman. I know many. We still aren’t treated fairly. A man can go around wearing whatever he wants, drinking however much he wants and having sex with as many women as possible. If a woman wears a short skirt because it makes HER feel sexy, she is called a slut. If she drinks a lot, she is a sloppy whore or a “walking target” for sexual assault. If she wants to have as much sex as possible, she is a whore. These are all double standards that are very unnecessary. We tell our children about this. We make our daughters feel terrible about themselves because they had sex for the first time but congratulate our boys and calling it a right of passage. Don’t you think that isn’t fair? Women are still seen as devilish and up to no good while men are still seen as innocent and heroic. That is why feminism is still needed. It might be hard to understand because it’s basically a social construct taught to us ever since we saw the differences between male and female. But that is what feminism is. It’s not man hate or lesbian power, it’s the destruction of unnecessary social constructs.

      Like

      1. sarahklum

        And you still have all the power. Just because he feels hey I was nice to her, took her to a movie and McDonalds she owes me sex. Yup but they are my legs and they aren’t spreading for you. Bye bye!

        See you still have the power to decide who you copulate with. Your complaint is? Maybe you’re looking for the wrong kind of man? Maybe you leave them with the idea that one date, a movie and a meal is your price to open your legs?

        Sorry be a little more discerning on who you decide to date. Maybe lay out the guidelines immediately before a date. Here they are or should be.
        1) Just because I like you doesn’t mean I’m giving you sex.
        2) I’m not an easy score if that’s what you are seeking please go elsewhere.
        3) If anything ever happens it will be my choice IF I am ready and yours IF you are. If we are both in the same place so be it and if not I’ll respect your wishes not to and you WILL respect mine as well.
        4) Money, time ect.. is not an investment for sex. If that is what you want go down to the redlight district and pay for as much sex as you want. Oh and stop calling me too because I don’t want your diseases.
        5) IF anything happens you are wearing a rubber.

        Wow simple rules laid out. If he stays then great maybe he is worth knowing and if not good riddance to bad trash.

        Sarah

        Like

    17. Nelson

      Apparently no one has ever told you this, so let me be the firstโ€ฆ You’re a fucking idiot.

      Like

    18. John Smith

      Speak for yourself. Who’s ‘we’ exactly? I can think of many women in this country who would be happy to disagree with you.

      My mom was raped in college, and when it came time for her to testify in court against the man who did it, the first question the judge asked her was, “What were you wearing?”

      Fuck you.

      Liked by 1 person

    19. Nat Jones

      This is what I find most upsetting. The selfishness.
      Really powerful reading OP

      Like

  2. Mim

    THIS.

    Like

    1. Ashley

      Please, do elaborate…

      Like

  3. Connie

    I find it very disturbing that these young women remain so ignorant of what Feminism stands for, it stands for equality not superior reign over another gender, we fight exactly for the opposite of that.

    It doesn’t help that girls aren’t taught what it means to be a Feminist and its long and continuing struggle through history. Imagine if someone said they weren’t against slavery in the same way because it’s never affected them? Or if someone said they don’t support cancer as they’ve never had it? It’s the same principle. And regardless if they think they’ve never been affected by it or not, women around the world everywhere still suffer at the hands of oppression. It is rude to belittle their struggles.

    (Great article!)

    Liked by 3 people

    1. Joe

      Its because these women only sees the radicals which are plaguing academia. Most of these #womenagainstfeminism are college students

      Like

      1. Connie

        I’m a college student!

        Like

      2. Tom Webster

        I am an academic and a feminist and a large part of what I teach includes gender studies, both as a theoretical means of engaging with historical texts and as part of courses of witchcraft and religious history. My most common experience has been that people (men and women alike) have gradually come to accept a better understanding of the varieties of feminism, often to recognise themselves as feminists, once they have got past the scare-stories of ‘man-hating’, sexually repressed, aggressive stereotypes that are promoted, usually by media with their own misogynistic agenda.

        Liked by 1 person

      3. Alessandra F.

        Considering the grammar on several of those messages, I’d say they are not college students.

        Like

      4. ladyrainicorn517

        Oh, stop. You don’t know what a “radical” is, and they’re certainly not “plaguing academia.” Here’s a hint though: Radical does not mean that women believe things you don’t about equal rights and representation. Opinions that are different than yours are not necessarily extreme. You are demeaning and dismissive for no reason other than your own insecurity.

        Like

      5. Caitlin Lee Reid

        Joe- really man? You are gonna make a totally uninformed statement like that? Thank you for coming to a feminist’s blog to read a fabulous article about feminism. It is a step in the right direction- especially since I assume you are a man. But, you are only contributing to the division in feminism these days by trying to label “true feminists” by whatever degree you or other’s find “radical”. I assume you are a man, but even if you are a woman with a traditional male’s name, you are doing nothing to drive this movement forward by trying to place the blame.

        Like

    2. gellatmeister

      Feminists fighting women now, must be hard to be rational when your cause serves little purpose in this age.

      The prefix in ‘feminism’ contradicts your first point, it’s a gender-inclusive term and it’s made apparent that feminists don’t give two hoots about the struggles of men. People would respect feminists if they stop saying that feminism means equality, it’s usually said by the same people who think men are immune to sexism whilst women aren’t.

      I can see why these women want to distance themselves from your movement, this article is guilt tripping them for not caring about what happens outside the western world. Why should they care what happens in India or Pakistan? They’re doing just as much for the wellbeing of women in Asia as you lot are; absolutely nothing.

      Being a feminist in the 21st century means victimising every single woman on the planet at every conceivable opportunity and using that as a platform to cry sexism at everything, you don’t think women are able to stand up for themselves so have to speak collectively on behalf of half the world’s population.

      It is refreshing to see women not letting the feminist fallacy brainwash them and thinking independently, why not let them be and stop interfering with their ideals? Feminists are becoming the exact thing they were originally fighting against, won’t be surprised if they use the “patriarchy” as a scapegoat for their own undoing as per.

      Liked by 3 people

      1. Margaret Pritchard Houston

        Hey, it took a whole five days for the “but what about men?” comment to show up! Almost a week! The Men’s Rights Activists must be asleep at the wheel …

        Liked by 1 person

      2. gellatmeister

        Yet you have trouble comprehending why women are turning their backs on feminism?

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      3. Sarah

        You are a fucking idiot

        Like

      4. gellatmeister

        Your ideology has been debunked for the sham it is and that’s how you respond? Jeez, I wonder why feminism is becoming unpopular…

        Like

      5. Andrea

        The thing about “feminist” is that it describes a variety of people. Some of them fit your description; many don’t. But if you need a villain, nothing this article says will make you pause and reconsider your position.

        Like

      6. gellatmeister

        Not all feminists are like you, I forgot you are the epitome of the noble human being.

        Why do feminists forget that feminism is an ideology they chose to adhere to and not something inherent? The ‘not all feminists’ brigade choose to whitewash the bad parts of the movement and pretend that feminism is all good, when it so obviously isn’t.

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      7. Arthur Cummins

        Arguments have greater impact if considered very carefully & are expressed with the most accurate words & phrases. Also, antagonists can only respect & weigh opposing points with reason if the other person proves willing to exchange shafts of enlightenment. Antagonists serve the world best when all parties are evidently aware of & comprehend each other’s views but remain fully in command of their own. Does anybody listen to a ranter? Good to know that you at least think about such issues but please beware of not thinking through. Eg, “Why should ‘they’ care about …?’ There’s a debate waitng to engulf us all.
        Best wishes to all human beings possessed of compassion.

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      8. gellatmeister

        It’s a form of guilt tripping by the author to shame those girls who put equality before feminism.

        Like

      9. Katie

        “Little purpose in this age”? Are the examples above not enough to prove to you that the purpose is great, even in today’s world? I say world not country because this movement is global.

        The prefix in “feminism” doesn’t mean that you have to be female to be one. The word began to be popularly used in the 1960s/70s only because the, previously more-favoured, phrase “women’s liberationist” gained a bad name for itself publicly in the press. Even though this is probably a better description of what a feminist is.

        Where in the above article does it mention the “struggles of men”? You’re assuming that all feminists, purely because they identify with the struggles women face, don’t empathise at all with men in today’s society. Perhaps there is reason for your misunderstanding – some women demonize men and quite frankly give feminism the bad name that it now has associated with it.

        Young men growing up today face a world of women telling them that they are “sexist pigs” and “mysogenists” before they even spend time thinking about how women feel or what they face on a day-to-day basis. No wonder they bow to pressure and act like their fathers and peers; pinching girls butts, making jokes about the kitchen and saying to women “God, someone’s got their tampon in a twist”.

        This is as much a problem for men as it is for women. Feminists act to liberate men so they can treat women as equals, and do what they feel is right, without feeling pressure to act like a “Lad” in order to get accepted.

        I look forward to the day when women stop slating men for holding the door open for them. I look forward to the day when women can hold the door open for a man and it to be not given a second thought.

        People need to stop thinking that feminists exclusively empathise with women. “Equality” is a term for men and women. Why shouldn’t men persue a career in fashion? Why shouldn’t a man take pride in being a stay-at-home Dad? Why shouldn’t same-sex couples be allowed to marry?

        “Equality” is for everyone.

        Like

      10. gellatmeister

        1) Yes, feminism is needed in those countries but you white middle-class women in the west are doing nothing about it. No, merely acknowledging those problems isn’t great.

        2) The prefix shows that the movement is gender-inclusive, regardless of what you lot say, it’s doing nothing to help men in this age when both genders have the same basic rights (in the west, from herein).

        3) Where did I bring that up? The classic ‘they’re not real feminists’ response, sort out the problems within your own movement before pretending you’re oppressed and the world owes you one

        4) Oh the humanity, how do we live in a world where people are ridiculed? First World Problems 101. If we’ve stopped crying over the trivial, don’t forget that men are much more likely to be victims of violence than women. Being felt up isn’t gender-inclusive issue either.

        5) Is that all that objectification/Page 3 crap? If so, there’s a lot of double standards surrounding it.

        6) What a bland outlook on life you have. Again, First World Problems 101.

        7) Be equalists or egalitarians then. Feminists are so naive that they’re more attached to the label than pursuing equality.

        Like

      11. Oli

        I could not agree with this post more!

        Like

      12. shushamouth

        ๐Ÿ‘๐Ÿ‘๐Ÿ‘๐Ÿ‘๐Ÿ‘

        Like

      13. Sandy

        The reason for the prefix doesn’t imply that it’s only about women. The reason it’s called FEMINism is because the movement grew as a response to a patriarchal society; women were the ones who created it and women were the ones who needed it. The name drew attention to the gender inequality from women’s perspective because at the time that the movement grew, men were perceived as the superior gender. Today, the name still highlights the tendency of most cultures towards male dominance whether it be physically, sexually, educationally or economically.
        In response to your other point on saying we do nothing for women in other countries anyway, globalisation ensures the spread of western ideals to many Asian cultures. This post isn’t telling people to take their battle to a different country and stand up for feminism there- it tells them to stand up for feminism full stop, because the mindset needs to spread to women in other cultures. You need more people on the Internet standing up for true feminism and the idea of equality, rather than women in other countries hearing that feminists are evil, which is the message the new ‘women against feminism’ thing is spreading. Things are never going to improve unless the women of other cultures themselves start believing in their own worth and value. If their own education isn’t teaching them this, then it’s up to us to vocalise that women and men are equals, and hopefully the message will get to them that way. Demonising feminists however prevents women who have been taught they are inferior from realising they are not. And if you’re talking about something more substantial than that, like charity work, there are organisations that do that, as not every woman who has a belief in a cause can get up and dedicate their life to it; however, simply stating their ideals on the Internet generates more and more media interest, until somewhere a more educated female in a less developed country feels the responsibility and has the opportunity to, for example, set up a girls’ school, start educating women and go about adjusting the gender divide. Everything we say and do has an effect in some way, it simply remains to make up your mind whether it’s going to be a negative one or a positive one.

        Like

      14. gellatmeister

        The name of this supposed ideology can change, lots of words have been given a new predominant meaning from 50 years ago; like ‘gay’, ‘queer’ and ‘faggot’.

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      15. flashmaggie

        Does it not occur to you that men can be feminists too?
        http://www.fawcettsociety.org.uk/resources/images-photos/#sthash.xnfJN2HY.dpbs

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      16. gellatmeister

        Aye, because they think it makes them morally superior to us mere mortals and are under the illusion they have greater authority too.

        These men are either massive pushovers, severely pussywhipped or are extremely desperate for a girl.

        Like

      17. lou

        Yeah thats it, feminism is shitty cause the prefix is ‘fem’ and thats a word that has to do with women. Makes your comment pretty fuckin ironic.

        Like

      18. gellatmeister

        I think you missed the three following paragraphs.

        Like

      19. BiBi

        The prefix in ‘fem’ in feminism suggests that it is a movement that was started to pull women up from an inferior position in society, to one where they were equal with men. It was begun and exists still to fight this disparity, because we as women, even in the Western World, do not exist on equal terms with men. We are paid less, we are subject to more domestic violence, to FGM, our bodies are seen purely in sexual terms and used to sell. All of this doesn’t make us victims, or cause feminists to cry our for special treatment, just equal treatment.

        The vast majority of feminists are not calling for the wholesale overthrow of male power, or rejecting male struggles or whatever else we’re constantly accused of, but I ask you this – why does any discussion of women’s issues/rights/objectification always have to lead to ‘What about men? What about men’s struggles?’.
        Why can’t women claim any space in which to discuss womanhood without being asked to look into male struggles? Asking for female advancement, or for a female oriented issues to be discussed and brought to light, is not by definition a war on men and does not imply a lack of sympathy to men’s struggles. Just because most feminists don’t see discussions of feminism as an appropriate forum to discuss male issues, does not mean that we are not sympathetic to men and their worries.

        You seem to equate acknowledging that women have been historically oppressed and are at a disadvantage in the public sphere while standing up for ourselves and calling for that oppression to stop as victimhood. How can agitating for equal wages, maternity leave and for our daughters to grow up knowing that they can do anything they set their mind to, be examples of victimhood? Feminism is about encouraging women that they are strong, intelligent, powerful and capable of anything. Spreading that message worldwide helps that message germinate and grow worldwide & changes the minds, over time, of those who seek to oppress and subjugate women. That’s what feminism does for women in Africa and Asia. That’s why laws on FGM & forced child marriage are changing in the West and in the developing world, because the belief that women are chattel is being eroded by brave women, standing up for themselves and their gender. Again, how can that be a sign of victimhood? I assume you live in the West, every advantage that you enjoy as a woman; voting, education, the freedom to inherit your own money upon marriage, the fact that you don’t ‘belong’ to a man once you marry him, legal standing, the right to work (or not to work) etc…was fought for by a woman before you who saw the situation as it stood was wrong and needed to be changed. You have benefited from feminism, to deny that it has made you able to do the things that you enjoy or to decide, that despite study after study proving to the contrary, that female oppression exists.

        The reason for this article and others expressing dismay at the anti-feminism movement, is not because feminists don’t want women to disagree or think for themselves, it’s because the opinions expressed seem to be based on a misunderstanding of what feminism is, like the ones you’ve expressed above. Feminists are not calling all women to be victims. Feminists don’t hate men. Feminism isn’t a movement to usurp men. Feminists do not reject the idea that men are objectified or that sexist stereotypes don’t damage them. Feminists don’t want all women to think the same, act the same, or have the same priorities. We want women to be able to choose how to live their lives and for that choice to be a free choice. If Jane decides that you think a woman’s place is in the home, and Jane chooses to stay home, that’s up to Jane. As long as Jane made that decision of her own accord, and hasn’t been told she can’t go out to work then fine fine. That’s what feminism is about in a nutshell, women knowing that they can do whatever they so choose and empowering them to make those choices free from undue pressure or influence.

        There are of course, radicals. Radicals exist in every group or movement, but for the most part we don’t use the views of the few to define groups as a whole. It is reductive and simplistic to do so.

        And why should we care about what happens in India or Pakistan? Because we’re human beings. Human beings are compassionate by nature. And just because you aren’t doing anything to support change in the world doesn’t mean that no one is. Feminists believe that the work is not done until all women are free and can make their own life, the way that they want, the same way that men (on the whole) do.

        If you can argue with any of what I’ve said, and turn the positives I have outlined into negatives, then please do.

        Like

      20. Juliana

        No, you see, feminism is not about victimizing anyone. It’s about empowering victims.

        Go educate yourself.

        Like

      21. gellatmeister

        Seriously? They nitpick at the most trivial of things to find any slight hint of misogyny, whilst ignoring any parallel misandry. Crying sexism at things where gender isn’t an issue or where the same point can be made from the other side, that’s what feminism has been reduced to.

        Go educate yourself.

        Like

      22. Mellow Baku

        Why should we care what happens to women in India or Pakistan? Erm, something to do with being human? … When women are being mutilated raped and tortured elsewhere. Men are also subjected to sexism? @gellatmeister Your capacity to string words together is a waste of time, it’s a shame because you sound like you could be intelligent; you evidently have issues with women- possibly with humans in general.

        Like

      23. gellatmeister

        I do, they think they care but really couldn’t give a rat’s arse.

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      24. Sue

        What a lot of misogynistic tripe.

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      25. gellatmeister

        Anyone who criticises feminism = misogynist?

        I smell a strawman.

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      26. sewa247

        WTH?

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      27. Summer

        The reason the name feminism was adopted is because men already have rights that we women are still fighting for. We are fighting for equality and to do this we must fight for women to have more rights in order to be equal to men.

        People like you who don’t even attempt to understand why feminism is so important and just get butt hurt that we aren’t also campaigning for men’s rights that they already have, need to go throw their self pity parties somewhere else.

        Like

      28. MGamรณn

        Wrong in so many levels. In so Damn Many. How isn’t the shame just crushing you?

        Like

      29. Devrie Paradowski

        Feminism does consider the causes and needs of men; however, the pre-fix, “fem,” indicates that there is a cultural bias against women and therefore the focus is on that. That bias negatively affects men in a number of ways.

        Father’s Rights: We come from a long history of women being scorned for having sexual intercourse. In our not-too-distant past in the U.K. as well as in the U.S., women who got pregnant out of wedlock had been sent “away” and their babies put into orphanages that charged the mothers for the care of their infants because their home towns would not accept an unmarried woman. The men were never considered. To this day, we scorn women for childbearing, yet we place the ownership of “nurturing” and “work-life balancing” squarely on the shoulders of women. That negatively affects men in that we rarely ask men, “How do you manage your work-life balance?” as if men don’t care to watch their children’s plays, spend time in the summer with them, or be a primary influence in their children’s lives in the unfortunate circumstance of divorce.

        Men’s Value in Life: We live in a society that still values looks for women over their skills and personalities. We also live in a society that assumes men are the inherent breadwinners. As connected to how this affects father’s rights, equal pay for equal skill; parental leave issues; and access to reproductive healthcare are equally important to the men in women’s lives as they are to women. By not valuing the skills and work ethic of women through fair compensation and access to reproductive rights, we weaken the ability of men to gain access to female partners who can help lesson the financial burden of providing for their families. Women often care about providing for their families as much as they want to nurture their families and men care about nurturing their families as much as they care about providing for their families.

        Sexual Harassment and Assault: Men are victims of sexual assault and harassment too; however, the societal pressure for men to be manly men who get laid and for women to be submissive creates a double-edged sword for both women and men. The sexual objectification of women and the constant demeaning of attractive women creates a rape culture that pressures male victims of sexual assault to hush up and remain silent about their abuse. When we perpetuate the notion that women are here for sex and that men can’t “help themselves,” that is not only demeaning to men in general, but it creates this idea that men who are sexually assaulted and who complain are somehow less than manly.

        The Man-Up Culture: “Manning up” is incredibly insulting to women. It’s considered an insult to be in any way shape or form…like a woman. Consider these phrases: “throw like a girl;” “Cry like a girl;” “He’s such a pussy;” “He’s such a sissy;” “He’s such a bitch;” “He’s a faggot..”

        The fact that it is insulting to be a woman is the very reason we focus on the “fem” in feminism. It has serious consequences for males, though. Men are NOT inherently big aggressive apes incapable of human emotion, yet the idea of a man showing emotion is socially straining on men. It affects men. Men are capable of love, sadness, tears, Etc. There are gender differences in the way we communicate and in our maximum capacity for physical strength. It’s okay to acknowledge those without forcing people into boxes and without demeaning potential differences.

        Men need feminism as much as women need feminism. In fact, all spectrums of gender folks need feminism. That’s what many anti-feminists don’t seem to realize–that it’s a focus on the treatment of women for the sake of fairness for every gender.

        Like

      30. Traverse Davies

        Just no. Look, you have a conception of men’s issues and where they stem from that is entirely shaped by feminism. Try not to look at the world from a default position of masculinity good and feminism bad, since those haven’t historically been as true as they are often depicted, and they sure as hell aren’t true now (where the opposite is often true). Women who are referred to in masculine terms are mostly seen as lesser, men who are seen as feminine are mostly seen as lesser. It’s not that being a woman is lesser, it’s that being the other is lesser (I still disagree with it, but it clearly isn’t as one sided as you seem to be making it). In addition, a hundred years ago men got custody as a default in divorce. It was rare for a woman to win custody of her children. Modern child custody laws and attitudes are a direct result of feminism, so to try and claim that they are just a negative effect of patriarchy is nonsensical (in fact that was something that desperately needed to be changed… it just changed a little too far).

        Like

      31. Veronica

        I agree with this, and am often worried about how my sons will fare in this this very female-centric society.
        Many points of the article are fine, and well standing, but I feel these countries need to do a lot more for themselves before anything we do will help. Yes, we can help, but it’s not as simple as being a feminist and stating yourself as such.

        Like

      32. Tara

        I’m a feminist and I care about the struggles of men. Men are treated poorly if they “act like a girl” or a “little bitch” because obviously who would want to act like a woman? Women are inferior and crazy, men need to man up, am I right?? Because of our societal gender roles men are not able to express feelings, wear anything or do anything “too feminine” or they may be scrutinized and told they lack testicles. I would hate for my son or (any boys) not be able to express themselves because the world sees femininity as weak and inferior.

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      33. Traverse Davies

        What if in high school your boys are in fact rambunctious and rowdy? What if they turn out to be more “masculine” than you are expecting? What if as a result of being more masculine they are frequently given detention, told they are stupid, suffer from lower grades, become more likely to drop out and less likely to attend higher education? Will you fight for their right to be themselves if that means not being more feminine but instead more masculine? Will you fight for their right to be themselves no matter what those selves turn out to be?

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      34. gellatmeister

        treated poorly by being called names? Nothing institutional or physical, just something we dished out and received back on the primary school playground.

        Like

      35. Brรญan

        Your comment is disapppointing. You have obviously met an annoying person who claimed to be feminist. There are online movements you can add your voice to, and simple behaviour you can follow, to turn the tide of fear/violence in some places and discomfort in other places.
        I live in a modern Asian country, I am from a modern European country, there is no denying there are double standards for women.
        Is it your opinion that women think a certain way? Different to men? Many people have this opinion. That is why feminism still has a purpose.
        Feminism does mean equality, men are also reduced to stereotypes (often satirised (reducing their rigidity) by mainstream culture, starring men in narrative driving roles) and the feminist movement can include dissolution of these stereotypes.
        Being feminist in the 21st century actually means trying to awaken imbeciles from the fallacy that the highest merit for a woman is ‘trophy wife’, because little children are watching and learning.
        These children grow up and read comments like yours and believe there is actually a debate. Stop being that annoying person.

        Like

      36. Melanie

        Well if there’s one thing in this world we need to worry about protecting, it’s patriarchy. Thanks for reminding us all of what really matters.

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      37. gellatmeister

        Patriarchy is the god of the left-leaning woman, it doesn’t exist but they sure are adamant of its influence in society.

        Like

      38. Deanna

        They can’t stand up for themselves because of the law, culture, and being killed for speaking up. I’m sorry if that is too hard to understand that people get KILLED for standing up for themselves but it happens. In some places in. The world they are property, not people. They get abused for what is in between their legs and told that they are worthless. Men are seen as the superior beings. If that isn’t a need for feminism, then I don’t know what is.

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      39. gellatmeister

        Please tell me, how many times have you been killed for speaking out against the patriarchy or some other over-entitled first world nonsense? Your reasons for being a feminist is fighting problems that don’t exist, yet you can’t see why this backlash against the movement is just.

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    3. Jenny O

      “I find it very disturbing that these young women remain so ignorant of what Feminism stands for, it stands for equality not superior reign over another gender, we fight exactly for the opposite of that.”

      No. You don’t. You claim you do, and now people are calling out your hatred *now* you’re talking about women around the world, but until last week, all you cared about was demonising men and painting them are rapists while encouraging us to all perceive ourselves as victims.

      What feminism *says* and what it *does* are very, very different. And I’ve been told that my father, my brothers, my friends are rapists too many times to believe anything you have to say. And I’m not alone #womenagainstfeminism

      It’s not ignorance. We’ve done our research, and you’ve been found wanting.

      Like

    4. Matt

      That’s not what feminism stands for (clue is in the name). Never, in any discussion, have I heard a self-identified feminist discuss male rights and what to do about male inequality. All I ever hear is how poorly women are treated, misrepresentative statistics and inappropriate generalisations without any proper sourcing. You could argue that those are the proper goals of the movement but you can’t say that those are the goals most feminists identify with and actually propagate.

      It’s also not the same principle. It is more akin to a medical student saying they became a doctor to cure the Spanish influenza – a pointless endeavour as it harms practically nobody anymore. A social movement aims to correct social injustice – once it has been corrected the movement is obsolete (at least in societies where it has succeeded). The problem is that in Western society, feminism is no longer required yet still continues to fight for MORE rights for females. There are social injustices for both genders (women, definitely, but men also) and, although you might argue it is the goal of feminism to correct them all, it is inefficient due to the inherent focus on female rights. At the very least, proponents of such ideals should re-brand themselves as egalitarian or humanist, not feminist.

      Women in Western society don’t need feminism. They need a society which is egalitarian and humanistic. One which fights against all social injustices, fosters greater critical awareness and promotes more positive fundamental ideals. Women (AND men) in other societies need this too. So… Really, what is the point of feminism? Because that isn’t what it does and hasn’t been for a long time. Nobody needs feminism because it narrows focus on one thing, gender issues (with a heavy emphasis on females), when other ideologies focus on that and so much more.

      But, I realise that I’m not complying with the circle-jerk of white knights and suffragettes that usually embroils these discussions so I’m probably going to be imminently castrated. Goodbye boys, we’ve had a good run.

      Like

    5. Samantha

      It’s because, once more. many people give feminism a bad name. Much like religion or politics or anything else, it’s given a bad name because of certain participants and therefore becomes shunned. I remember going to a debate about Ron Jeremy (A famous porn actor) and a feminist at a college debate. The feminist was booed and shunned and treated poorly. Not because she was a woman, but because she was rude, vulgar, condescending, harsh, and could barely stand to look at him. She would interrupt him, snap at him, and even interrupted a male student asking HER questions. Why? Because she had a sense of superiority. That kind of attitude is what turns people away from fighting these rights.

      It’s the same reason people turn from anything else. Religion because they force you how to be and shove religion and their beliefs down your throat without respecting you as a individual, otherwise you’re a terrible person and going to die in hell.

      It drives me nuts that people don’t see how ironic that is. I want you to love THIS but because you don’t I’ll try to force you to love it, and if you refuse to see the ‘truth’ of why you should love it then you’ll be punished.

      What we should be fighting for is humanism. Forget the pride parades, the black history, forget the feminism, religion, blacks, whites, yellow skinned, red, purple.. we need to fight for love. The hippies had it right. ๐Ÿ˜‰

      Like

    6. ou812

      “ignorant of what Feminism stands for” The charge that feminism stereotypes men as predators while reducing women to helpless victims doesnโ€™t apply to all feminists, but itโ€™s an accurate description of a large, influential, highly visible segment of modern feminism.

      Like

  4. Daisy

    Being new to the work of the movement ‘Women Against Feminism’, I have pursued my own modes of research on the matter to find out what it’s all about and, in doing so, have stumbled upon your article. First of all, there are a few items I find interesting about your post; namely the fact I don’t agree with the main thrust of your article which appears to suggest that the movement, which although positions itself ‘against’ feminism, should necessarily be recognised as being ignorant to gender inequality that unfortunately still exists in our society.
    Having studied a series of posts from the site http://womenagainstfeminism.tumblr.com, the majority of contributions do not attempt to refute the notion of feminism or the pursuit of equality, but instead demonstrates a backlash against modern conceptions of the feminist movement. I feel that your suggestion that the women writing against feminism are suffering from some blinded white woman privilege is slightly narrow minded. Instead, why can’t it be acknowledged that these women that are writing their responses to feminism are in fact pro-choice women, who are interpreting the movement in their own way? If feminism is the pursuit of equality and choice that it professes to be, then a stay-at-home mother has every right to celebrate her position as a woman that is doing the best she can for her children, and should be able to do so without being assumed to be in some way weak or oppressed by the male figures in her life. There is no doubt gender does matter in the society we live in, regardless of where we position ourselves in the world, and I don’t personally feel that the women on sites such as the tumblr address I posted are necessarily damning the need for equality but are instead, asserting themselves and their choices as empowered women, that do not like to regard themselves under the term ‘feminism’. In the feminist interest of shedding gender labels and stereotypes, surely their movement – whilst claiming not ‘to need feminism’ – is perhaps the most acute demonstration of equalitarianism that has been considered in our time.

    Like

    1. Felix Mac

      I certainly don’t think the author of this article is in any way trying to disregard a stay at home mother doing the best for their children, and can’t find anything in the piece to suggest that is the case.

      Like

    2. Charlie

      The role of stay-at-home-wife doesn’t need to be fought for, because it has always been on the table, whereas closing the 15% pay gap is something that does. More to the point, why housewife and not househusband? why the cultural assumption of men as the breadwinner?

      Regardless of what you may argue about the degree to which women against feminism have some kind of white-privilege-false-consciousness, what cannot be argued is that they are in structural position of relative economic, ethnic and educational privilege and by no means bear the burden of representation for the entirety of their gender.

      Like

      1. Imogen

        I disagree with you Charlie! Even today I know many couples who sooner or later get into an argument and the guy plays the ‘I pay the bills around here’ card.

        Feel free to correct me on any of this but the way I see it – back in the day women were considered to be not important enough to vote, or lead or think or have anything of value to say. And what women did do (stay at home to look after home and children) was also considered unimportant. But instead of fighting to change that mindset, when the movement for women’s rights came along they seemed to turn around and treat the homemakers with the same disdain (or at least under appreciation) as the men had.

        To me it is no wonder ‘just’ the housewives are not the biggest fans of feminism. I think they were severely let down by it even though I consider myself a feminist. Who else should have fought for them if not the female activists?

        Like

      2. Imogen

        Although I wholeheartedly agree on the house husband idea. Society still treats children as if they are women’s projects. It’s the women who suffer most in their careers while men who also become fathers career wise do not suffer at all (might even be better off). Their role as fathers may suffer. This system just doesn’t work as putting the whole burden of childcare on women and not giving men enough of a chance to be a father is not the best option to anyone and also brings with it growing inequality of sexes.

        Like

      3. Shane

        The 15% pay gap. Jesus. This STILL gets brought up, despite having been debunked time after time.

        Like

      4. Jenny O

        The 15% pay gap doesn’t exist. The pay gap itself DOES. NOT. EXIST.

        I find it incredible that supposedly intelligent people who have no doubt read the reports that debunk it fully, still perpetuate this notion that it’s a thing. It’s intellectually dishonest.

        Like

      5. Rowena

        The 15% pay gap is not, as it is often presumed to be, a direct comparison of identical jobs with identical hours (any such inequalities can result in organisations being sued), but is an average hourly salary of men and women working in the same industries. It remains the cultural norm for women to take on the bulk of childcare responsibilities, but there is no effort to measure any impact this has on the figures – impact such as fewer hours worked in overtime, fewer senior positions taken up by working mothers that would necessitate overtime or frequent travel, the impact of maternity leave on the year-on-year trajectory of a career, etc.

        There are now more househusbands around, especially as more women are progressing further in their careers before they choose to have children, therefore may be earning more than their husbands – I applaud the fact that we now have this cultural shift towards more individual choice. But the emphasis is that this is a choice, and it remains a choice that more women wish to make than men. I am such a mother (and I am not white) who has chosen to work part-time after having children but not pursue a great career change over the next few years while my priority is to care for my young family – and I am not alone among my professional female peer group. We cannot ignore this situation when considering the pay gap, and we may wish to consider what it is we wish to achieve – do we want a 50-50 ratio of male to female work and childcare responsibilities? If so, to what end? We now have equality of opportunity, and rightly so. The rest is down to personal choice; we do not need, and should not require, equality of outcome.

        It also remains a fact that more men die as a direct result of their job than women, because more men still take on the most dangerous roles in society. Why aren’t feminists calling out for equality here? Because men are expected to take on more dangerous jobs, because they are generally more physically capable, or perhaps deemed more expendable in terms of the family unit. Similarly, more mundane but demanding jobs such as rubbish disposal are carried out by men. These jobs are relatively well paid for the skills that are required, and rightly so, because they require hard physical work and people don’t generally want to do them. But we aren’t arguing for gender equality here, because these aren’t desirable jobs.

        While we’re looking at the stats, more married men than married women in the UK are now recognised as being subject to abuse from their partner – and it is widely acknowledged that fewer men report such abuse out of culturally induced shame, for fear of not being believed or being mocked for being weak, so those stats may be more significant than we know.

        A truly equal gender movement would express indignation over ALL of the statistics and vow to effect cultural change for the benefit of all, not pick and choose stats to suit a gender-biased agenda. Some self-professed radical feminists have chosen to deny such statistics in the past, and even gone so far as to make death threats against people such as Erin Pizzey, the founder of the London women’s refuge that is now the national charity Refuge, whose story is here:

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erin_Pizzey

        I believe that western feminism had its place in history, and that there is now a place for women’s movements in many countries and cultures across the world – but I feel that western feminism has lost its way and I do not relate with many of its radical standpoints. I share some views and values with modern feminism, but not others, in the same way that I share certain values with the Church of England, but am not a Christian. Similarly, I am sure that growing up in a country whose history has been greatly influenced by Christianity and feminism has brought me unique benefits; that still does not automatically make me a Christian or feminist.

        I believe that we should now be talking about equality, otherwise we run the risk of bypassing some gender-based injustices in favour of others.

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      6. Ashley

        TItties. That’s why. A “househusband” cannot breastfeed a newborn child and in those first months of life, is vastly inferior to a woman in terms of parental capacity. Women are smaller, slower and weaker, on average, than men. That’s why there’s no female players in the NFL making 11 million dollars a year. It’s simple biology that drives much of the “inequality” that feminists rail against, not some “sexist” BS. Women and men are different and are in many respects both inferior and superior to one another.The consistent denial of basic biology that underlies feminism is ridiculous and downright obnoxious. It’s a constant fallacy of denying choice to those who would choose differently.

        I wear this skirt because it’s freakin’ adorable. I shave my legs because I love the way that they feel. I’m wearing 5″ stilettos because they make my calves look amazing and I ENJOY looking amazing. These are my choices and mine alone, yet feminism would have me convinced that I’m “just brainwashed by a conservative upper-class ideology with selfish disregard for the third world.” Never mind the fact that I spend my time volunteering, giving access to birth control and abortion services to women who live in areas where these basic services are not available, because that too (helping PEOPLE) makes me happy. Because I believe that we all have the right to make our own choices, and to receive the healthcare we want and need regardless of our income or job status or ideology. It makes me far happier than “earning a living” ever could and I am thankful for my own lot in life and for my husband who supports me.

        Feminism would have me believe that I breastfeed my baby in public because I’m empowered, but I wear stilettos because I’m oppressed. The dichotomies are infuriating. I’m married. I give zero shits about what anyone thinks of me and what society wants me to do. I enjoy playing dress up and wearing pink and putting dinner on the table by the time my husband gets home. I love to make that man happy as much as he seems to enjoy making me happy. I’m not oppressed. I’m not brainwashed. I feel, from deep within me, compelled to spend most days taking care of our children and I only hope that they too can be whatever they want to be, whether that’s a physician, a housewife, or a fuzzy legged feminist cliche. Women against feminism? How about women for choice, in all things, for everyone, without judgement.

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      7. Macy

        wow, this is by far the best criticism of WAF that i’ve seen, i didn’t even realize that most WAF may hold such biased views due to the fortune of their privilege in race, economic class, etc. thank you for pointing out something that i should have already realized, haha. (and i promise this isn’t sarcastic, because it could come off that way.)

        Like

    3. Verity

      Brilliant. I feel a lot of feminists (not all), push their own views and values on women, and are quick to instruct as to how we should behave and respond to something… Kind of like the behavior they so openly detest from men. if some women don’t need feminism can’t we all just smile, say good for them and focus on helping the ones that do need a bit of equality, instead of getting our non-lacy but practical knickers in a twist and devoting time and energy to attacking and denouncing the happiness and security of the more fortunate?

      Liked by 1 person

      1. Ripley

        The anti-feminism movement is the result of a gross misinterpretation of feminism and what it stands for and it perpetuates this misinterpretation to cause damage to the validity of the feminist movement. Women that say they don’t need feminism because they don’t feel oppressed or don’t feel objectified or feel that other women are shoving ideals down their throats are missing the entire point of feminism and is detrimental to what ultimately strives for: equality. Women blindly shunning feminism undermines the feminist movement and sets it back considerably.

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      2. AMarie

        Just as the right to equal pay for equal work won’t be an issue for all women, neither will the right to own property or the right to marry or the right to vote. (In that, not all women want to purchase land, or have a spouse, or actively participate in their democracy.) Just because the life a stay at home mother leads is not expressly mentioned, does not mean she doesn’t benefit from or is not represented in feminism. I’m sure a stay home mother can appreciate the right to chose the father of her children, can appreciate that her daughter can have the same educational opportunities as her son, and that she has a legal right to these children should something tragic happen. These are all rights which feminism has procured her.

        And as a point, if there is no need for active feminism in a culture, then no one would have a problem being a feminist. If people aren’t willing to stand up and say that ‘these are my rights as a human being,’ the. They may one day find themselves without them. People always need to be willing to stand up for others; it is the only way I lift us all up.

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      3. Alessandra F.

        The problem is that these women vote and vote for representative as close minded as they are and this will affect the life of others. Personally I don’t give a toss about the woman who wants to be a housewife, she is free to chose that role and she will not have much of a resistance to fight against since that role is readily available and has been for now thousands of years…. Well, working class women have always worked through history but let’s not spoil the middle upper class view of the world by which women have never worked in the past few thousands years……

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      4. Tara

        It appears by labeling themselves as anti-feminism and speaking out about feminism they would like to fight against feminists. Because if they are truly happy then why do they need to speak out at all? Am I wrong? Are they just labeling themselves for us to see without any particular reason? I suppose I could be under false assumption but it is really disheartening to see some women trample all over a movement that has enabled so many other women to stand up for themselves and each other.

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      5. Melanie

        People jump on each other for differing life choices all the time, regardless of what camp they’re in. For every feminist criticizing a stay-at-home mom for not having enough ambition, there is a stay-at-home mom criticizing a working woman for not staying home with her kids (or worse yet, not wanting or having kids in the first place).

        Feminists are no more guilty of passing judgment than anyone else.

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    4. Amy

      Daisy, I’m afraid you’ve been brainwashed. I don’t know who told you these things about feminism, but they’re quite wrong.

      I’m a feminist and have been for a long time. I’m also a single working mom, though I will happily say that all moms work, because childrearing is very real and very important work. I have been a single working woman without a child, a married working woman without a child, a married stay-home mom, and now — well, I do everything. There is no argument, in feminism, with getting married, staying home, and raising children. There *is* an argument against being treated as a domestic slave while doing it. But staying home to raise kids? Go and god bless, and always keep some money separate in your own name.

      I will tell you that without feminism my life today would not be possible, and neither woul my daughter’s. That’s partly because it is legal for a married woman to have her own property and her own credit (I was a teenager before it was legal for married women to apply for credit without their husbands’ signature). It’s partly because it’s illegal to discriminate against women in hiring, and illegal to take marital or motherhood status into consideration. Women are not shamed, nor are their children shunned, if they are divorcรฉes. All of that has changed in my lifetime.

      Because of feminism, I was the first woman in my family to finish college — at a university that began admitting women only 12 years before I got there. (It’s also the university where a young woman named Jeannie Clery was raped and murdered, and it’s because of her, and her parents’ long fight, that you receive notifications when there is criminal violence in your campus community. Back then, as now, the university tried to cover it up, and her parents weren’t having that.) I went abroad, on my own. Unheard of in my childhood, young women doing that. I chose my career, I chose how I lived. I chose, for that matter, when I had a child. My mother was pressured into having children when she was barely out of childhood herself — it’s what women just did. Me? I had a whole life, first. I traveled, went to graduate school, worked, built a c.v., bought property. And then, when I was good and ready, I married a man who looked like he’d be a good daddy, and I had a child. I was almost 35 when she was born. In my own childhood, a woman who didn’t marry until her 30s was a spinster and an object of pity. And a woman who was voluntarily childless was selfish. Today, it’s routine for young women to wait to have children until they really want them, can afford them, and feel they can raise them well. Or not have them at all, if they don’t want to, and thank god, because to be the child of a trapped and miserable mother is no picnic.

      As a well-educated, property-owning, landlording, career-having single mom, I am free to give my daughter love and opportunity. She drew a picture recently and gave it to me — I thought it was a nice picture of her reading under a tree, and that she was giving it to me because I like trees. She got impatient and pointed to the caption, “[Mom] by [Daughter]” — and she explained the whole drawing. I was the tree, enjoying the sun, decorated with flowers because I am (to her) stylish. She was happily reading in the tree’s shelter, and the tree was also home and protection to several other creatures, with nests and stored food. On the other side of the tree was an annoying-looking beaver, and acorns were raining down on him hard. I take care of everyone, she told me, and look out if you get in my way or get me mad.

      That picture’s up on the wall in my home office now.

      That’s not the entirety of my life, though. Now that my daughter’s old enough to be without me for a few days at a time, I travel — for work, for pleasure. Again, a scandal in my youth. I take lovers, I have boyfriends, when I have the inclination and time. And I am under no pressure or compulsion to marry them. I don’t have to accept a suitor who shows up intending to “rescue” me (look out for those guys, they’re no good). 40 years ago? I’d have been abused by all for refusing a man who showed up willing to marry a divorced piece of trash such as myself, and been called selfish for not bending to give my daughter legitimacy.

      If I am attacked, if my house is burgled, I am taken as seriously as any married woman. For that matter, I have a house, because, despite my being a single woman, a bank will sign a mortgage with me just because I’ve shown up with enough income.

      All of this is recent. As I say, in my lifetime.

      You want to be a stay-home mom? Do it up. Raise those kids, take good care. (And mind the back door, because you never know what’ll happen in your marriage; keep that resume looking nice, because disability strikes 1 in 8 adults at some point in their lives, and you may find yourself having to support your family whether you intended so or not.) But don’t come telling me that as a feminist, I’m saying you shouldn’t do that.

      Like

    5. Sandy

      I’m a feminist, and do not in any way judge a stay-at-home mother. My mother was one. And she’s a feminist too.

      Like

    6. C-Laire

      I think I’ll find this comment relevant the day it no longer adds “who wants to do the best she can for her children” after the words “a stay at home mum”. So a woman who does not stay at home is then not doing the best she can for her children? The best a woman can do once she has children is to stay at home… Where a good mum belongs… If only all women in the world were W.A.S.P.S with a do-well husband that can provide for them… Sexism is so deeply engraved in western mind that I am amazed how such a comment can even go un-noticed. A lot of women have to work and cannot stay home. Daddy’s gone and they have to provide. Or they need to work as daddy’s salary is not enough. Some women actually do also want to work even if they don’t economically “need” to. And you know what? That’s ok! Working mums, hard working mums, are not doing anything less and are not any less good mums than those that stay at home. It is not questionned whether a man is doing “the best he can for his children” when he is at work. But if a woman wants to do her best, well apparently she needs to stay home! Staying at home is indeed, for some, a choice. Good for them. The day we see men wanting to stay at home and being able to do so, and the day we stop making working mums feeling guilty then I think we won’t need feminism anymore. I am a (white) highly educated woman with a good carreer. Apparently I am the privileged type. Yet here are some interesting facts: we are a team of 17 people, all lawyers. 9 women and 8 men. 6 people in this group have management responsibilities but only 2 of them are women. The head of this group is also a man. In the last 3 years, 5 people were let go for “economical” reasons. 4 were women: 2 of them were pregnant and the other 2 were on maternity leave (yes that is legal in the UK). I understand from some of the comments that these girls in “women against feminism” groups are mostly in college, where grades are indeed based on how hard you work/study and how bright you are. We’ll see how well these ladies do once they arrive in the real working world. Unless of course they have a child and so naturally decide to stay home, where apparently, women belong if they want to do “the best they can for their children”. Thanks for that!

      Like

    7. BiBi

      Feminism does not demonise stay at home mothers. Feminism is about choice. If a woman chooses to stay at home, that’s her business. We just want young girls to have the same chances, opportunities and be pushed academically in the same way that young boys are, so when it comes to choose their paths in life, grown women are aware of all options and aren’t pushed one way or another.

      The fact is, as long as women are earning less than men, women need feminism.

      In my experience of the anti-feminist movement, is not based on rejecting feminism itself, but the irritating and pervasive myths that exist to devalue feminism. When you read a placard held by a young woman that says ‘I don’t need feminism because getting drunk, having sex & then regretting it is not rape’ is not a criticism of feminism. It’s a misunderstanding of what feminism is and seeks to do. They feel they don’t need feminism, because they don’t know what it is. They see feminists turning women into victims because they don’t know what feminism is.

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    8. Veronica

      Here here. Thank you.

      Like

  5. Lydia Schmidt

    I don’t understand how feminism is so absolutely misinterpreted to be denounced by people who generally have all the same values and ideals that feminism tries to make a reality. Honestly, I just want to be able to have whatever job I would be capable of doing or learning to do without being looked down on because it’s either “such a stereotypical girl job” or because I’m not considered smart enough to do it. If I want to baby sit, don’t make me feel like I’m useless and act like that’s all I can do because I’m a girl. It’s a way to make money. Don’t make me feel inferior for it. If I want to learn how actually take care of my car instead of always having to depend on someone else when something goes wrong, teach me. I can learn just as well as any human on this planet. I want to live in a world where I can choose to live my life how I want to live it without judgment or condemnation solely because of my gender.

    Like

    1. Amy

      Okay, I’ve just left a long reply above, so will only say: What is this straw-man argument you’ve got here? You want to babysit? So go babysit. So does my daughter, and I think it’s smart. Beats minimum wage. Of course, she’s also very young. When she’s older, I hope she’ll do something that makes more money, because it’ll mean she’s got more choices, more protection, more opportunity to take her time in making decision. “Girly” is not the issue; “bottom line” is the issue.

      I’ve been a feminist a long time, and I don’t know who you’re fighting with in your head, there, but it ain’t me. Frankly, your concern also sounds oddly…1980s-ish. Are you sure it came from actual feminists, and not some religious group?

      Like

    2. Tinansubuga

      No body makes you ‘feel’ anything. Your perception of society as whole contributes to these feelings. I have baby- sat many a time, been a model, I write a blog that entirely focuses on girly issues oh and I am a food blogger spending a lot of my time in the kitchen ( OH MY GOD) and I have never felt like anybody is going out of their way to make me ‘feel’ inferior. Maybe if I went looking for these feelings I would find them but I would rather focus on things that make me happy.

      Liked by 1 person

      1. Mellow Baku

        Maybe you are luckier than some, model – blogger. Maybe there are people (females) out there who are not as resilient as you and (OH MY GOD) HAVE indeed been put down / shat on from a great height. Why seek to discredit another woman’s story with your own?

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      2. Tinansubuga

        haha how is saying to someone that she can control how she feels about certain situations discrediting her story? what would be your advise to someone that you just described then? no doubt sarcasm would take a front seat haha..

        Like

  6. Andy

    I agree with Daisy that an anti-feminist position needn’t be: ‘I don’t need feminism because the gender inequality that exists where I live seems not to affect me in any negative way, therefore I’m pro the status quo.’

    Although I think a lot of people do think this and I agree with the writer of this article that that position is horribly misguided for all the reasons highlighted.

    An alternative anti-feminist position would be something like: ‘I think men and women shouldn’t have the same opportunities open to them, because men and women are fundamentally different and are suited to different roles – however, this is often misinterpreted, for instance women as wife and mother man as breadwinner is fine, women as property man as owner is bad’.

    This is a different sort of anti-feminist position, and one that recognises that gender inequality has negative consequences at some times and in some places, it just says that we can eliminate those negative consequences without eliminating gender inequality.

    However, this anti-feminist position also seems to me wrong-headed, and well, a bit ridiculous. If feminism is successful then women can be wives and mothers and men breadwinners if they want to – so all the positive elements of the anti-feminist position are saved – but the won’t be any gender role obligating women to be wives and mothers and men to be breadwinners – so feminism avoids the inevitable consequence of absolutely any anti-feminist position which is: what happens when some women don’t want to do ‘female’ things and some men don’t want to do ‘male’ things?

    Feminism is about ensuring that your sex does not impede your freedom. I honestly don’t understand how anyone could be against that.

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    1. Grace @ Cultural Life

      “Feminism is about ensuring that your sex does not impede your freedom. I honestly donโ€™t understand how anyone could be against that.”

      Hear, hear! And to add my two cents to the discussion, I think the majority of the arguments over feminism stem from what people perceive feminism to be, rather than what it’s actually about: freedom and equality. It should be simple!

      Like

    2. Uzmonkey

      Well said. It’s often hard to write coherently about a subject when you’re passionate about it and it’s doubly hard when you’re frustrated that other people can’t see what seems so obvious to you. You’ve put this in better words than I’ve ever managed and I hope you don’t mind if I use this as inspiration for my points the next time I find myself in the debate about whether Feminism is still relevant.

      Like

  7. Mia

    The year is 2010, you’re a white, privileged, highly educated girl that has been raised believing in gender equality. You discovered your sexuality quite early and are enjoying it at the fullest, by choice, you have had a bit more partners than the norm for somebody your age. Always respectfully of yourself and the other, always avoiding risks. You are attending one of your country’s best university, that even teaches gender studies, yet everybody thinks you’re a slut and treats you as such. People you don’t know think you’re a slut. Even when you go on a study year abroad, on the other side of the planet, the few people from your school there, that you have never met in your life, know your reputation before your plane even lands. They then are surprised to discover a quite balanced human being and tell you about all the things that they heard about you. You know that a guy in the same situation would have been labeled a “player”, but for you it will be “hore”. It doesn’t even hurt that much, you got used to it.
    The year is 2012, and you are settling with a guy that does not “mind” your reputation. You want to choose your own contraception, since the pill make you gain weight unreasonably even though you have tried at least five kind over the years, on the advice of more or less judgmental gynecologists. You have to go through several health professionals until one finally accepts to equip you with a copper T, the other ones refused because you haven’t had children yet. You have done your research, you know its not more risky for your fertility than hormone based contraception. You feel disgusted every time they choose to ignore that you are a smoker and that hormones actually increase your risk of stroke. The man who puts your copper T is the first gynecologist not to judge you for your past or think he has the moral high ground. He tells you that it is the first time he does the procedure on someone who didn’t have children yet, because women your age are usually not aware of alternatives to the pill. Actually, you and him discover that a local anesthesia is quite necessary for your kind of case during this procedure, he’s going to call his colleagues afterwards to inform them. They were not taught that at school. One of your friends won’t have the same luck, she will faint out of pain during the procedure because her gynecologist didn’t deem it necessary, even though she asked for it. When its done, you are in pain but you feel relieved : for the first time, you won’t be scared every month and your body won’t take a toll because you choose to have sex.
    The year is 2014, you feel that for the past two years, you finally had control of your sexual health ; you are so grateful that you found the energy to battle the medical world and society in order to find a solution that suits you. You remember that your mother is a feminist, and though a few years ago you couldn’t understand what it was all about, now that you have seen all the obstacles that society puts in front of you every time you try to make an educated choice for yourself, you realize that the path to equality is still long. And that the judgmental mindset is shared by both women and men, in everyday life and in the medical profession.
    This is not a fictionalized version of my story, just the blunt truth about a privileged white girl who doesn’t exactly fits the mould that her “advanced” society wants her to.
    So thank you for this article. We all need more of this, and the battle is not over in Western countries either.

    Like

    1. Carodwen Nightwillow

      You notice how the rebuttal is always white privileged. Can you all hear yourselves. How can they not be against feminism. They are all treated so kindly when using their independent thought./eyeroll Sheesh. Maybe they have a point?

      Like

    2. Edward Galore

      Thank you, Mia. Your comments poignantly illustrate how misogyny persists in western societies despite the progress made. Economically secure and educated women living in the first world fare much better than their third-world sisters, and they enjoy autonomy and security to a degree likely unimagined by previous generations. Yet, incidents of harassment, disrespect, and unequal treatment are so ubiquitous that most people, men and women, rarely acknowledge sexism when they witness it, and are unlikely to do anything about it even if they can’t ignore it.

      Like

    3. buzz

      You do realise, just like you mentioned, a male goes through those exact same issues. A young man who hasn’t had children will be refused a vesectamy by most doctors. Ones that will do it run a series of psychological tests and examinations prior to the procedure.

      A man being labled as a player, can be just as hurtful to some as a women being called a slut.

      The obsticals you speak of here are obsticals for a young person, man or women.

      Like

    4. Rose

      In counter point to this, You are a young male pre-aids epidemic, you can’t get contraception to protect you from diseases because the feminist movement lobby against it as removing a womans right to choice. Fast forward to 2014 you are a young male, You can now buy condoms as a contraceptive though they are prone breaking and aren’t 100% safe, They are the only form of contraception outside of a vasectomy available to you. Several male contraceptives that are safe to use and 100% effective have been created but feminist lobbyists have blocked them being legalised at all health conventions around the world as they remove the woman’s right to choice. Your modern girl has many different choices available to her about contraception, but you say she is oppressed over her decisions. Feminism doesn’t allow men to have those options available in the first place..

      Like

    5. wendi

      Thank you. This was as powerful as the original post.

      Like

  8. Bacca

    I share the viewpoint with Daisy; that the author of the article above has misunderstood the stance of many of the women against feminism, and wrongly dismissed them as ignorant.
    I would consider that I share many beliefs with feminism, including equality between sexes. Many, especially the 4th wave, would say this would make me a feminist, it does not. No, we just share beliefs, in the same ways Christians, Muslims and Jews share a commonalty of beliefs.

    This may also be the case for some of the WAFs.

    Feminism is a broad church and like most movements has some rather unseemly aspects. Actually if one studies certain aspects of feminism one finds rather a lot of unsavory views from some very celebrated feminists such as Julie Burchill or Sheila Jeffrey who’s opinion towards the trans community is abhorrent. do you deny they are Feminists? Or are they just not your type of feminists?

    Many of the arguments in the article are constructed fallacies akin to saying:

    -You like cheap consumer products, you MUST be a capitalist (regardless of how you feel about low pay and the quasi-divinity of capital).
    – You believe in equality for all, you MUST be a communist (regardless of the the ruthless oppression of the individual).

    Remember feminism -especially the feminist movement – is not perfect. It has good and it has bad elements. It is how people view all the elements in tandem that decide whether are feminist or feel they need it.

    To imply or just call them ignorant is wrong.

    Like

    1. Rob S

      The fact is that it is all too often the case that so-called Anti-Feminists DO argue from a position of ignorance.

      They fail to understand that, much like every other movement in the world (religion that you brought up, for instance) has intolerant, sometimes (inadvertently or otherwise) nasty, adherents. Feminism, and the message of liberty, equality and tolerance that it represents shouldn’t be eschewed just because some individuals (a vocal minority, it must be stressed), who have adopted the label act badly.

      Often the press focus themselves around a depiction of people that proves that these people are doing the OPPOSITE to what they believe. Let’s look at jihadism for instance; this is a case of what is professed on one hand by the religious (message of peace, love, acceptance, etc.) being SUBVERTED by the actions of a minority of the religious (those who kill others in the name of their God, etc.). The media has to focus on a DEVIATION from the norm in order to give us news. This inevitably often results in consumer ignorance – for example here a widespread fear of Islam due to a misinterpretation in much of society’s media output.

      The same has happened with feminism. People only read about feminists behaving badly, misunderstand the label, decide all feminists are ergo bra burning, trans-hating misandrists who want to instate some odd form of matriarchal society. The media rarely portrays feminism in a positive light, and as a result many people see feminists as a wholly negative bunch.

      There is very rarely an attempt at affecting the balance that you spoke about above. People haven’t time or inclination to research in depth social justice movements, particularly when much of the media tells them that feminism is just misandry and you should just ignore the shouting until it goes away.

      Your issue was with the word ignorant – in no way did the article conclude it was wilful ignorance or stupidity on behalf of the AFs and WAFs. I’d put it to you that the ‘ignorance’ of anti-feminists, if you’re going to call it that, is entirely accidental, and is one inculcated by a press that abhors the potential for an inversion of the status quo. The anti-feminist has no idea that they are missing much of the real truth behind the feminist message because it has not, in fact, been given to them.

      That said, definitions of ‘feminist’ do differ. If you don’t like the way feminism is done by some people, why abandon such an important cause altogether? Surely a more tolerant, change-from-the-inside approach is called for? Why reject and take up an opposite position when, as you acknowledge, the core message is so important? This is not conducive to a better society, rather is making the world a more divisive place.

      I also don’t think the arguments in the article are constructed fallacies. Instead of the straw man arguments you bring up there, choose the points in the article that are fallacious and attack them directly.

      Like

  9. Frida Thorarins

    Thank you so much, Every woman – in the West and elsewhere – must understand that no rights have been handed to us. We have had to fight for every right we have and we must continue to do so for every girl and every woman on the planet. We must stand guard around what we have and continue to expand our rights. Feminism is our tool and armour.

    Like

  10. Em

    I have absolutely no comment on the actual issue of feminism, that is not what my reply is about. The reason I don’t agree with this post is because it borders on hypocritical. If you are all for freedom and possibilities, then you should let each person be free and not write an angry article shaming another person’s choice. You have the right to be a feminist; the people on the facebook pages have a right not to be, and yes, even to be against it (At this point, I will repeat that I’m neither for or against feminism in this post!).

    At the end of the day, the point you are making is as much as race/geography issue as a feminist one (the man in your Pakistani woman story got taken away also). So yes, it’s completely okay for a modern Western woman to not have these concerns, because they know they are a Western woman! I’m not saying they shouldn’t care about others, I’m just saying you shouldn’t imply it’s wrong to not support feminism – each to their own (they are allowed the freedom of life and expression that you claim to support), and everyone is entitled to their opinion – you, me and them. So you go your way and support feminism and let those other people have their opinions without trying to shame them for it.

    Liked by 1 person

    1. Rob S

      The point of the article wasn’t to shame, just to educate. The issue is that some western women, from their position of privilege, have chosen to disregard a movement that is of fundamental importance to many people around the world.

      It’s fine if you don’t want to be a feminist, but ultimately it is ironically feminism and movements like it that have allowed people the freedom to choose whether they do or don’t subscribe to their message.

      And someone who doesn’t believe in equality for everyone is surely a bit of a wally, right? Shouldn’t they be ashamed to be such a selfish solipsist, or is that too harsh?

      Like

    2. Grace @ Cultural Life

      Well, yes, of course everyone has the right to their own opinion. But I think the author of this post is expressing the fact that women around the world today are raped, treated violently, denied an education and discriminated against, simply because they were born female.

      Those women do not have freedom of life and expression. That is what feminism is fighting for, so that women all around the globe can have the same human rights as men. How can anyone be against that?

      Like

    3. Veronica

      Great response, this is one of the issues I have with the feminist movement, or the feminazis as I call them. Feminism is all about choice (just one small part) and yet they are forever bagging out others’ choices. Not on girls, it’s just not on.

      Like

    4. Tara

      It’s not their lack of support it is the anti-support. Anti-feminist are fighting against feminism, so what should feminist do, sit back and take it? Should feminists just stand back and allow some women to butcher the movement they obviously feel passionate about? You’re correct, everyone has a right to their own opinion. My opinion is that anti-feminism is wrong and I also have the right to say so.

      Like

    5. Nicole

      the man in Pakistan was taken away because he married someone’s daughter without permission. the same would not be done if the family’s SON married without permission. daughters are killed all the time for shaming the family and marrying for love. it’s still representative of the female as property belief. just because her husband was killed as well doesn’t make it a non-gender issue.

      i think it’s ignorant and short-sighted for these women to say they “don’t need feminism” because without the first waves of feminism, these women would be the ones fighting for fundamental rights today–that is, if they even care about having basic freedoms like the right to vote. whether or not they agree with modern feminism beliefs is one thing–but to completely dismiss the feminist movement and say “i don’t need it”, after women have come so far because of brave women in the past–just shows our disillusioned and utterly spoiled our culture of modern young women have become.

      Like

  11. Steph

    I am one of the people who say I don’t agree with feminism not because I think feminism is wrong but I disagree with modern feminists and their anti-male aggression. Yes I entirely understand what true feminism is and I agree with the vast majority of what they stand for. However, I study computing and am utterly fed up of people saying I’m doing so well for gender equality (I do it cause I like it not to fight for equality) or feminists trying to get more people to do computing so that there is gender equality in technology. There’s nothing “gender equality” about women specific internships or bursaries you get cause you happen to be a female who likes science. That opens us up to even more sexism than before. It’s fundamentally simple, a lot of the time men and women do like different things. This is not 100% the case but it is for a lot of people. I know very few women who are interested in what I do and very few men who are interested in my more female stereotypical hobbies. You can’t force women to do computing just because that will make the numbers more even, in the same way a housewife shouldn’t be scorned for choosing to stay home and look after the kids because it’s doing nothing for the feminist movement. My sister had a feminist come up to her and actually shout at her for learning to be a teacher and cooking for her friends. Both of which she does because she loves them not because she’s oppressed and forced to. I realise that there are people throughout the world that need feminism because in some countries girls and women are treated horribly and it needs fixed! But a lot of the things that get done over here aren’t helping at all! I agree wholeheartedly in gender equality and that is why I say I disagree with feminism. I am an equalist. I want gender equality throughout the world which includes people’s rights to choose what they want to do in life even if the path they choose happens to be the stereotype.

    Liked by 1 person

    1. myotherblogisaferrari

      I fully respect your comments about being an equalist. It often bothers me that feminism is seen as just a women’s issue when it concerns both men and women. One thing that stands out to me though are your reasons for being against positive discrimination. Perhaps women don’t tend to be interested in computing, etc. because from a very young age they have learnt gendered ideas about particular interests and occupations without realising it. Just looking at birthday cards for boys and girls suggests that girls should be interested in dancing, singing, shopping, gossiping with friends, being beautiful and ‘fabulous’ and boys should be interested in computer games, sport, monsters, jokes and cars. Also, from birth we are positively reinforced for doing and liking particular things (boys and girls) and often this is gendered. A friend recently reminded me of the saying, ‘if you can’t see it, you can’t be it’, perhaps positive discrimination is important here.

      Like

    2. Satah

      We have come a LONG way from my mum’s generation where teaching, nursing and secretarial work was open to a woman. For a female to choose to do an IT role and it be through choice, and not as the ‘one token female’, who has earned her place in the field, then that is a score for the sisterhood. Sure there who people say ‘wow, a woman in IT'( like you’re a creature in a zoo) but it’s not THAT long ago when it wasn’t available to women . Just one generation. There are those in my mum’s generation who fought against the idea of ‘just being a teacher’ or ‘just a housewife’ (‘re cooking duties ) which can make the feminists of my mum’s generation mad because they don’t realise that’s part of the fight for equality too… Their fight was the fight to choose an d they feel your sister hasn’t been creative enough to choose something else (like IT). But feminism is an evolving concept, different for each generation. I think arguing over the semantic s of what to call the gender argument is missing the point. If someone congratulates you for being a woman in IT, then it means the feminism fight continues – if we’Re still thinking it’s a weird concept for a woman to earn her place in her chosen field, then we must keep having the gender debate. Perhaps those comments won’t be as ongoing for the next generation.

      Like

  12. Ben Smith

    So if western feminists are so concerned with womens rights abroad, why do they constantly moan about mundane western issues that are literally hilarious when discussed by other non-feminist extremists? Why not go help stop FGM in Africa instead of talking about a lip balm advert and ‘why do her lips have to look so good in this advert, she is not a real woman’, or ‘Global warming is a feminist issue, why are we not in the discussion more?’ just to demonstrate a few absurdities.

    Liked by 1 person

    1. Josรฉ

      Oh, I missed this message, now I understand that you’re not sarcastic your just so ignorant of the world we live in.

      Like

    2. BiBi

      Western feminists can and do campaign about a lot of things. Including FGM in Africa, the middle east and the West AND sexist advertising. Most, if not all, anti-FGM charities, projects & campaigns are headed by women, if not, feminist women.

      Like

    3. MM

      You don’t think that some feminists do both?

      Like

    4. R U Poed

      The author is trying to engage activism. Not necessarily lead the movement. Different approaches to the same goal. Western women struggle to keep what little ground they make or had made every day. You only need to look up ‘birth control’ and you can see if you really look, the very Draconian attitudes and new laws against western women. You can see how they just become objects, things we grow babies with. Still not convinced? Look up ‘convicted rapists fighting for custody’. The point is that many men are naive (as you showed by your comment) because they lack the tools to understand the problem.

      Please don’t reply regarding 1st trimester abortion is murder rhetoric, because reality is, if men could get pregnant. Not only would birth control be over-the-counter. It would be available at every convenience store corner in chewable tablets.. In the end their Choice.

      Like

  13. funhousefreak

    Reblogged this on A Different Way of Life and commented:
    This isn’t specifically LGBTQ related, but it does have to do with gender. A very well-written and thought-provoking post on Feminism.

    Like

  14. Ben Smith

    ‘And what about on a cultural level? Have you ever noticed how comedy panel shows usually only have one female panellist compared to 4-5 male ones?’

    – Men are often funnier, everyone knows it and popularity proves it.

    That almost every dieting product on the market is solely aimed at women?
    -Women tend to diet more than men.

    How a lot of newspapers and advertising campaigns will use a sexualised or pornographic image of a woman to sell news or products that have nothing to do with sex?

    – Because men have far stronger sex drives than the average women, sex is a proven seller and we live in a world where people are trying to make money.

    Gets so tiring pointing out common sens observations or basic geography/biology to feminists.

    Like

    1. Ramin

      You’ve misunderstood correlation for causation.

      If you’re tired of explaining things to feminists, stop.

      Like

    2. Josรฉ

      Is this sarcasm? Because if it isn’t, you’re so wrong.

      Like

    3. Sandy

      Right- why is is that women tend to diet more than men? Ever considered that your cause and effect might be the wrong way round? Or at the very least, the focus on women’s bodies in popular culture means that women become more concerned about the way they look, hence diet more.
      As for ‘men are funnier’, I’m not sure you have any scientific or even social grounding for that; if you find a study that proves it then you can say it, otherwise it seems to be based on the very observation you’re trying to support. Basic circular proof.

      Like

    4. momo

      You might want to spend about two more minutes thinking about your “factual biology” statements. If you think about it really hard, maybe it will occur to you question WHY women statistically diet more, etc.

      Like

    5. Mark

      So true. “why do women still only fill 24% of senior management jobs” – The author obviously has never done a daily commute into London, where only one in four (if that) are women. If half the city workers were women, and half were men, roughly half the senior management positions would be filled by women, simple as. It’s not down to the employers being sexist, all companies are far too aware of the ramifications of being accused as a sexist company to employ sexist recruitment strategies. I would argue that more jobs are filled by women because they are a woman, than jobs filled by men because they are men.

      Like

    6. BiBi

      Nothing you said is biology or geography. Just tired hoary old stereotypes that aren’t in the least bit true.

      Like

    7. amandafsundell

      Okay, wow. I am getting really, really tired of pointing out to some MRAs and men that they should analyse things beyond the basic level of observation. However, I am baffled by your lack of understanding, so here goes anyway:

      Statement 1:
      “- Men are often funnier, everyone knows it and popularity proves it.”
      “Popularity” doesn’t prove that men are funnier – if women aren’t given the same opportunities to perform as men, people will not discover female comedians. In fact, the few women that have made it broadcast comedy have had huge successes – Ellen DeGeneres, Amy Poehler, Mindy Kahling, Kate McKinnon, Tina Fey, Kirsten Wiig, Jo Brand, Sue Perkins, etc. Actually, men are usually mostly funny to other men (according to this study: http://ucsdnews.ucsd.edu/archive/newsrel/soc/20111019HumorTest.asp) and even though they are just ‘ slightly’ more funny, the study’s first author Laura Mickes, a postdoctoral researcher in the UC San Diego Department of Psychology and a Ph.D. graduate of the same department said, “The differences we find between men’s and women’s ability to be funny are so small that they can’t account for the strength of the belief in the stereotype.”
      So no, men are not funnier. However, the owners of most television companies (Viacom, General Electric, Time Warner, News Corporation AND The Walt Disney Company) are all… *drumroll* MEN. And since men find men funnier – they only hire men. What a surprise!

      Statement 2:
      “-Women tend to diet more than men.”
      I wonder why, if all the diet commercials are aimed at women? I suggest you watch “Killing Us Softly 4” if you feel like learning something. I honestly cannot even be bothered trying to explain this one to you.

      Statement 3:
      “- Because men have far stronger sex drives than the average women, sex is a proven seller and we live in a world where people are trying to make money.”
      So essentially it is fine to make a profit on women’s insecurities and sexualisation because ‘we live in a world were people are trying to make money’? I wonder were you got that idea from, hmm? Do you think it is society that have told you since you were young that sexualisation of women is okay? Again -if you feel like learning something, here is a link: http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/overcoming-child-abuse/201203/the-sexualization-women-and-girls

      Like

    8. Jeff

      “Men are often funnier” – That is an opinion. Don’t act like that’s a statement of fact. Just because you believe it’s a true statement doesn’t make it so.

      “Women tend to diet more than men” – No, really? What an astounding observation. The point is *why* do women tend to diet more. They tend to diet because they’re told, by male-dominated advertising companies for example, that they need to be skinny and attractive to have value.

      Like

    9. Lain

      That, my friend, is what we call psuedoscience. Men do NOT actually have stronger sex drives than women. And why do you think women diet more? Is it maybe because of ridiculous standards set for our bodies? I suppose that’s also why more women have eating disorders; we learn from an early age to constantly hate the way our bodies look – too much hair, too much fat, too many wrinkles.

      Men are often funnier and popularity proves it?? I am not even going to address that one. Jesus.

      Like

    10. MM

      I don’t think Adam Sandler or Lee Mack are very funny, but they’re really popular. Popularity proves nothing.

      Women diet more than men because women are expected to be fit. Look at American TV shows- fat slob husband with a fit wife. Even cartoons have that!

      Who said women have lower sex drives. My girl can keep going after sex again and again and again, whereas I gotta take nap.

      You’re so close, just keep thinking a step more and you’ll learn the reasons behind your “common sens.”

      Like

    11. Chloe

      You have not reached the root problems in trying to argue your points. For example, merely stating that ‘Women tend to diet more than men’, does not explain WHY women diet more than men. It has not occured to you that this is due to an enforced need to be thin and ‘feminine’, and this pressure is often exerted as a consequence of women believing that to be thin and feminine is a requirement in order to be attractive to men.

      ‘Because men have far stronger sex drives than the average women, sex is a proven seller and we live in a world where people are trying to make money’ – I am afraid this is a rather poor and ill-sourced argument. There is no credible evidence that men have stronger sex drives and that this is an acceptable argument for the sexualisation of women.

      Arguing that these are ‘common sens observations’ just demonstrates your lack of awareness about empirically supported evidence into the biological differences between men and women. As one of my past lecturers explained in an ironic anecdote, it would make more sense to differentiate people based on height than gender, as height is observable and can mean simple things, like reaching things up high or living in a low ceilinged house, can have more of an effect on an individual than can the type of genitals a person has.

      Like

    12. Keri Heart

      Ben, the thing is, it’s called brainwashing. You have been brainwashed to think that way. The reality is I like to see sexy virtually naked men with pouting lips on posters and I am just not getting enough of it, because all the ad space is taken up with fake looking women.! Cheers Keri

      Like

    13. Erin

      Then maybe you should just stop, since you completely missed the point of it all.

      Like

    14. Anne

      Why do women diet more? Being normal weight would be healthy for both sexes, but for some reason, like you said, women diet more.

      Women are expected to be thin. Otherwise we are fat sluts and what nots (well, sometimes we are fat sluts anyway, no matter how thin). I’d like to get rid of these expectations and having unrealistic porcelain photoshoped models selling products in every corner doesn’t really help . I don’t want anyone making money with something that puts pressure on little girls (and grown women!) and causes anorexia.

      Just a couple common sense observations for why we still need feminism.

      Like

    15. Betty AmazingBetty

      Men aren’t funnier – there are hilarious female comics. A lot of them are pushed out by the toxic environment on the circuit. Funny women are often ostracised or discouraged because their behaviour isn’t ‘ladylike’ enough.

      Women diet more because we’re constantly being told that the way we look isn’t good enough. Men’s advertising tends to say “yeah, you’re awesome, here’s a product that will compliment how cool you are” where women’s advertising plays on insecurities and convinces them that they need products or diets just to look human.

      Men do not have stronger sex drives than women, and if an ad agency can’t sell a product without sex then they’d better fire their creative team. There’s nothing wrong with a bit of sex in advertising, but make it relevant. It’s boring – fresh, creative advertising is more effective than just hiring a generic looking model to represent any number of irrelevant products.

      Like

    16. Sarah

      Troll. Very troll. I mean droll. (Or do I?) Your comments do not prove men are funnier. Sure there is a massive overwhelming number of male comedians, doesn’t mean men are funnier than women. The argument is irrelevant. There are more male executives, producers, male network owners who put men on their shows because it’s safe. Tv comedy does not tend to takes risks or push boundaries (unless it’s cable tv, free to air = safe) because they need the ratings. Which leads me to sex sells. A tried and true concept. But safe. And kinda boring these days. I don’t even react to lingerie models on a billboard or a bus, that’s how normalised it is for me. For every ten half naked women , there is one man with his shirt off. If we’re going to talk gender equality, where are all the semi-naked men in the media? Why do they get to wear clothes? Aren’t tges women cold?? Tongue firmly placed in my cheek. It seems odd that your arguments speak of obvious gender difference but it is so irrelevant to the argument of this article and completely off the point to the gender discussion, it’s almost as funny as a male on a tv panel show

      Like

    17. Lucy

      I really think you need to read all your comments and ask yourself “WHY?”

      ‘Men are often funnier…’

      – Couldn’t this be because there are more men in the field? Also boys are generally brought up to be more confident and aggressive (allowed to take jokes that step too far, allowed to push the boundaries). Girls are conditioned away from crude, blunt, harsh remarks that are almost ALWAYS part of a male comedian’s repertoire.

      “Women tend to diet more than men”

      – Again, WHY? Why do you think women diet more? Women are constantly sold the idea that they’re not good enough. They have to be skinnier, curvier, prettier, etc to be “desirable” to men.

      “Men have far stronger sex drives…”

      – Yes, everybody knows that unfortunately “sex sells” but surely you understand that the objectification of women as being there just for sex and just to look to good is wrong? And why is it that men are targeted? If sexualization is such a MUST, why aren’t men objectified to even a fraction of the same extent that women are? (This also goes back to the last point that we are constantly being told to reach the unattainable perfect appearance)

      You should apply some critical thinking and analysis to your “common sense observations”… it would do you some good.

      Like

  15. Ashley

    Your article has a dual-thrust approach to countering anti-feminist arguments. You first counter their claim that serious abuses of rights by men against women no-longer occur by pointing to examples from countries that have not yet undergone the period of women’s civil rights liberation in the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries and the sexual revolution of the 60s that took place in Europe and North America among other places. Next, you point out that even in liberal countries, material gender inequalities still exist, in the form of pay-gaps etc., though they are not so severe as to constitute a civil rights inequality (honour killings, forced marriage and sexual slavery are all thankfully illegal). Therefore I do not think you have responded to people who object to “rape culture” rhetoric when it is used to describe liberal societies. That’s not to say of course that it isn’t possible to give examples of sexually aggressive and repressive ideology in liberal societies, but as you have omitted to do so, you haven’t really explained or justified what is understandably a difficult concept for some people, many of whom have no experience of it.

    Like

  16. vanessafuller

    Right on, sister. Thank you, thank you, thank you for writing this. And, especially, thanks to all those feminists (both male and female) who fought for equality and justice before us. In solidarity….x

    Like

  17. Luke Flegg

    I only agree with the concept of feminism where it seeks to eradicate itself as a campaign. Feminism action that aims to be a temporary change-making strategy; bringing women to the place where men are now – in terms of power, money and influence. This is why I don’t consider myself a feminist – because it feels “anti” something. Anti – now. Anti-where-we-are. And I’m more into change-making and campaigning which is timeless; which works toward an ideal that we can always do more to strive toward, such as a REAL democracy, in which individuals are better educated on issues that affect then PLUS more empowered to affect change on those issues. Feminism can never be an answer, it can only be (I think) at best, an offset – a temporary correction – to steer us away from the problem of a male – driven world; the chauvinistic remains of a male-dominated political & economic system.
    While some people call themselves feminists, I call myself an empowered equalitist.

    Like

    1. Sarah

      Isn’t it just semantics. Feminism meant there was a generation of women with limited options & didn’t have the tools or the voice to even have the awareness to fight or effect change. We’ve come away from the 1950s housewife stereotype, & women do have choices and options open to them. But feminism is a Western ideology, women in Bangledesh or Cambodia may not even dream of it as a concept because they have accepted their fate. I think feminism has evolved beyond what it was in the 60s but some woman today focus on the 60s ‘burn your bra’ butch image … Rather than the question Caitlin Moran asks of ‘are you a woman?’ (Yes). Then you’re a feminist. How can you be a woman and not be FOR women & their struggle??? The rest is just semantics.

      Like

  18. paschass

    i find it slightly ridiculous that the many accounts of “sexism” you have decided to write down have been in connection with stories simply from countries in Asia and Africa, and the whole “white western woman” story. There are many women, millions in fact, who are treated very well in India, Africa or Pakistan, just as there are many women treated like utter shit in western countries as well. My comment would be that if you stand up for equality then don’t categorise the world so much, be aware that sexism is EVERYWHERE.

    Liked by 1 person

    1. myotherblogisaferrari

      Agreed. Also, everything is connected, especially when it comes to values and ideology. For example, over sexualised images of women in advertising could support ideas about women being sex objects and result in people not being as concerned (without realising it) when sexism is happening, mild or extreme – it is normalised.

      Like

      1. jhan1969

        Anybody ever think that it’s the WOMEN AND GAY MEN who run the fashion industry who promote anorexia for women? How many straight guys do you think work at Vogue Magazine? How many straight male designers of women’s clothes are there? Most straight guys are looking for someone relatively attractive and nice. The huge majority of us don’t have these unattainable physical requirements for women. So STOP blaming us when you should be looking at your side of the fence. I’ve met plenty of people in the fashion/mag industry in NYC; women and gay men run nearly EVERYTHING.

        This is one of the things that drives us NORMAL people insane about feminism. The idea it’s always EVERYONE ELSE’S FAULT. Women are never responsible for their own decisions when things turn out bad. Feminists want 100% control over reproduction, but want EVERYONE ELSE to pay for their contraception and abortions. It’s the endless VICTIM-IDEOLOGY + ENTITLEMENT BS.

        I wonder how much cognitive dissonance is required to adhere to an ideology that contradicts itself at every turn. But then again, that’s how most leftist ideology works . . .

        Like

  19. lady piper

    So I insist that we women should be able to serve military duty.

    Like

    1. amandafsundell

      Great initiative (yes, I am going to pretend I didn’t hear your sarcasm)! I’d say let’s make military duty available for everyone – women, lgbtq+-people, religious people, men – and make it voluntary for all. Actually, Sweden already permits that, and it works great, with A LOT of women applying.

      Like

    2. The Logical One

      You must realise there are some practical issues with women serving on the front line. There are 6″4, 120kg men that also server on the front line, if one of them were to be shot, would you be able to carry them on your back for multiple kilometers to safety? I’m not saying no woman could do this I am saying very few women can. And I don’t think that this equality argument should potentially endanger the lives of others when it is not necessary. There are plenty of positions in the military almost every single one of which a woman can serve in, I just don’t believe that from a practical standpoint that the front line is one of them.

      Like

  20. Stephanie sutcliffe

    I agree with everything you say, but I am not a feminist I am a humanist.
    Feminism has been hijacked by campaigners for causes that actually aim for female superiority rather than equality, and for removal if womens rights to choose to do something because others feel it is demeaning for women. That brand of Feminism is what makes a lot of people despair of it all. We should all be fighting for equality for everyone, the right to marry who we choose, to love who we choose, to wear what we choose and to be who we choose because our one defining, uniting feature is that we are all humans.

    Liked by 1 person

    1. Ramin

      The feminism has been hijacked argument…. it’s like refusing to identify yourself as Christian because of the Westboro anti-gay stance.

      Simply poor logic.

      Like

    2. Shane

      Feminists have no interests in equality, period.

      They are deathly silence about issues where men get the short end of the stick. like men getting cleaned out in custody battles and divorce cases, the higher suicide rate of men, to name but a few.

      Feminists, if you’re so for equality, what are you doing to help men who are working three jobs to support their ex-wives who do nothing all day long but screw the poolboy?
      What about the fact that men are far more likely to be homeless than women?
      What about male genital mutilation?

      You’re not doing anything, aren’t you – cos you don’t give a crap.

      Making a total mockery of any notion you care about “equality”.

      Feminism once had noble goals, it was about achieving a fair crack of the whip for women.

      It won, and it achieved it’s aim.

      These days it’s degenerated into a total farce, a so-called movement for (mostly) ugly** women that spends it’s days whining like children about first world problems such as “boo-hoo, we’re too lazy and weak to do the REALLY shit jobs that men do (like work 12 hour days in the blazing heat and freezing cold carrying blocks) but we still want the same pay for sitting in our nice air-conditioned office filing reports!”

      Or…

      “I want the same pay as an engineering major (usually male), even though I have a women’s studies degree. Its not fair that the engineering major gets paid more. It must be discrimination. Yes, that’s it. Its the big, bad patriarchy keeping me down!”

      Waaa! Its not fair!

      Evil patriarchy!

      ** And yes, it is mostly butt-ugly women who become feminists. I hate to go down the ad-honimem route of name calling, but in this case it’s NOT a cheap shot, it’s reality. Hot women aren’t feminists, cos they’ve no need to be..

      “This is what a feminist looks like” (no shit! I was expecting a bevvy of Victoria’s Secret models..)

      Like

    3. Tara

      Can you give some examples of these hijackers of feminism that believe that women should be superior to men? I have honestly never heard of a single one.

      Like

    4. Gordon

      I agree with every single word you say here – a balanced, sane view.

      Like

    5. Erin

      Can you give me an example of how modern feminism aims for female “superiority”?

      Like

      1. sarahklum

        Yup. The irrational belief women have that others need to pay for our birth control. Feminists call it a RIGHT. They obviously don’t know the difference between right and want.

        Look at divorces and how the women ALWAYS get the kids, and control of visitations even with good fathers. If you hit your BF and he calls the police they don’t arrest you and they call him a cry baby. If he looks at you wrong you call the police and he is arrested “for your safety”.

        I can go on and on. Shall I?

        Like

    6. She

      yes, i too am a humanist.

      Like

  21. Naomi Frith

    A beautifully written, well executed case for the hundreds of years others have given their lives so that I may write this comment.

    I find it amusing that these women haven’t made the connection that it’s due to feminism that they were able to use their freedom of speech in this way at all. Irony? Maybe?

    Like

    1. Carodwen Nightwillow

      Actually my dear, we have freedom of speech due to this. I know you may not recognize it First Amendment: Freedom of Speech (1791) http://www.shestokas.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/bill-of-rights.jpg

      You know what I find amazing about this article. Guilt shaming people who dare speak out against something they disagree with. Wikipedia talks about it here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_manipulation
      Ironically enough they refer to it as a for of “Psychological Manipulation”
      Weird. That such a free speech loving, tolerant movement would use manipulation to tell women they are wrong for not being like them.
      Another odd thing I find is how, if you request not to be seen or even associate with feminism, you know due to the volatile things seen here http://youtu.be/wPUvUYU7Qzw and here http://youtu.be/iARHCxAMAO0 as well as the two links here http://youtu.be/SIZTKcVKTYs and http://youtu.be/wPUvUYU7Qzw

      You see when women, especially the ones that stand for human equality, see speech censoring or just plain out disgusting things such as these, they make a almost nightmareish realization…. Feminism is a horrible ideology now. Because. and I say this will true sincerity. The women who then say “We’re not all like that” move on to call those people calling them out, ignorant, uneducated, and my favorite, ungrateful western world white privileged brats. (where do they come up with this crap. Seriously) Why is it when someone disagrees with something, not just in America (largely though) but everywhere, they start demeaning their character. Is feminism not about a woman’s choice to choose? or is that only in regards to pregnancy? And speaking of pregnancy why do they call Female Infanticide in America Pro-Choice? Are they not the same thing. Murdering a little girl? Or is that only in countries that don’t actively allow abortion (yet) I’m all for pro-choice, even though as a barren woman it breaks my heart that anyone can kill a lump of tissue that has the ability to develop a beating heart and create a tiny sound that says “I love you mom” I support your right to do that. Even though I would encourage you to use the massive amounts of birth control available to help that (I of course realize that doesn’t help a rape victim so please do not attack me for that. Because honestly how many abortions are due to rape?)

      Anyway. I just simply choose not to associate with the ideology anymore and I can still be for everything this article claims only a feminist can care about. Feminist do not run the world anymore and its high time they stop trying to silence those that dare think for themselves. Especially the woman. Because after all. Thanks to feminism we have the natural right to think independently without being told by some over privileged nobody telling us that we in fact are not allowed to do so.

      Thanks feminism. Your previous efforts are appreciated but the rattlesnakes have poisoned your course and its now slowly dying from the poison. I found my cure in the form of separation and individuality and free thought. Maybe try and remove the poison so you can thrive again? Be well be blessed and as always,

      Blessed Be.

      Like

  22. Kimmosammie

    Great article……really made me think……. Maybe some people get too hung up on terms and ‘movements’, when in fact we are just talking about decency and equality…forget about the labels like Feminism! It is easy to turn a blind eye or forget about the inhumain acts that go on in this world, whether it be in the Western world or elsewhere. I for one will try to be more appreciative of the freedom that I have and to try and support those who don’t have that freedom or a decent level of life. Thank you for your words..after all we are lucky to have the freedom to say what we want to say and read what we want to read.

    Like

  23. LordTriggs

    just a few points here that I think you need clarifying.

    “why do women still only fill 24% of senior management jobs?” because many women have not worked in that area long enough to be considered for the senior role or pure and simple the person selected had been selected based on their skill.

    “Why are more women than men domestically abused or even killed every week at the hands of their male partner or ex-partner?” Actually the amount of reported cases of men being abused by a woman is abut the same and even then it is a very small percentage of men who are abused because men are made to feel pathetic if they do say they’re being abused either physically or mentally

    “Have you ever noticed how comedy panel shows usually only have one female panellist compared to 4-5 male ones?” Well for many comedy panel shows they have certain comedians that are on permanently. It also is down to booking schedules and agreed upon amounts of money. There are actually many women comedians but they normally don’t go on tv because they are almost constantly on tour

    “That almost every dieting product on the market is solely aimed at women?” because very simply men on the whole do not care about their weight as much as women. Most men will wake up in the morning weighing 20 stone, will look in the mirror and say “yeah I’m looking good”

    “How a lot of newspapers and advertising campaigns will use a sexualised or pornographic image of a woman to sell news or products that have nothing to do with sex?” Two simple words. SEX SELLS. As a species we are always on the look for sex and are drawn to it automatically. Also there are many products that sexualise men, hell I saw an advert the other day for coca cola that had a super toned guy take off his wet shirt. If that isnt sexualising men I dont want to know what is

    “Do you choose to wear certain clothes because you want to or because you feel โ€˜unfeminineโ€™ if you donโ€™t? Do you choose to cover yourself up because you want to or because you feel ashamed or intimidated by a man looking at your body?” clothes for us are akin to what plumage is for a bird. It is our way of attracting a mate. Plenty of women go out dressed in a tracksuit. It has been scientifically proven that men and women both automatically look at gentilia even those of people of the same sex and animals, it isn’t personal it is a subconscious involuntary act. Yes some men clearly stare and will make some form of comment but those guys are what many people refer to as douchebags

    “Do you shave your legs and underarm hair because you want to or because you will look โ€˜uglyโ€™ if you donโ€™t?” Once again this is all to do with mating. A woman shaving her legs is to show she is available for a new mate

    “Did you parents dress you in pink as a baby because they liked the colour or because you were born a girl?” Actually only about 100 years ago pink was a colour used more so for boys than women. It is also done out of tradition not sexism. It’s only common for a baby’s room to be pink/blue until they are about 2 which is when they start to have things they like which then a parent will often decorate a room to be similar to the things that child likes

    “Do you want to have children because you want to or because you are a woman?” This is not a sexist thing this is biology. At a certain age people want to have children. This is out of the base instinct to carry on ones genes. As a species that is our sole goal. Men often are less receptive for the wanting of children because for men when they pass on their genes they lose purpose.

    “When you look at yourself in the mirror in the morning, do you see yourself through your own eyes, or through the eyes of the men that will look at you when you walk out the door?” Everyone looks at themselves through the eyes of other people. This is, you guessed it, mating. We try to make ourselves look as appealing to the other sex as we can so we can get a more desirable mate.

    I do not know about the pay gap because I have never seen it. But largely the western world is equal. Remember to look at things from both a man and woman’s point of view and also remember that we are a species with one true purpose. To have sex and pass on our genetic structure to a new generation. It is not a personal attack against you but a subconscious response to pheromones and the base instinct of our species

    Like

    1. Karen Alex (@karen_alex)

      I am sorry. This is quite delusional.

      * The reason why women do not reach the high positions is not because they do not have the experience or qualifications. That is a simplistic perspective.
      They are not hired in these positions are often the hirers feel more comfortable having a men in these positions.
      There are other problems that exist in the workplace. Men are often given more challenging work. Sometimes (in my experience) women have to fight to be given challenging work. Men are more readily promoted.

      * I agree. Men are also abused. And yes, men find it humiliating. However. The number of reported cases of men being abused is not equal to that of reported cases of females being abused. The reason why more women are abused by men than vise versa is historical, for generations it has been ignored and even seen as acceptable. And physical. Men are usually physically stronger than women.

      * I don’t know how you can comment on the schedules of all UK comedians. I am assuming you have not done research into this matter.To be honest I have watched and wondered the same thing. Why are there always so few females on these shows. The times I have seen a women host she is hilarious.

      * You might have a point on the weight. I do think men have something in build in them that makes them often believe they are more attractive than reality. I think that is necessary for the future of the human species. But the pressure media puts on women to look beautiful is undeniable.

      * Sex does sell. But objectifying people is wrong. And psychologically it has been shown to create a lower opinion of people when they are seen as objectified.

      * Nothing wrong with the colour pink. It goes beautifully on box sexes. Actually here in the Netherlands it is not uncommon for men to wear pink.

      * I 100% agree. The need for a child is biological. Without it the human race might not exist.

      * I think there should be a limit to how much value a women places on what a man wants to see. It is a potentially dangerous slope. I think to be honest in our personal lives the more dangerous is when women have to cover up. Basically women should feel free to have their own style.

      * I am sorry, but “largely” isn’t good enough. Do you know how demeaning it is to discover that men who are even less senior than you are getting paid more than you?
      It is infuriating. You feel so cheated and under valued. Particularly when said male is highly dependent on your help and blow up at you in the office because you turn off Skype so they can no longer secretly ask you questions from their desk. The pay gap really gets to me. Times need to change.

      Like

    2. Lain

      So you don’t think it’s a problem that men get to not care about their weight, and women are shamed into constantly dieting? You say that shaving is for mating purposes – you are wrong. Actually, having underarm hair would be a way to advertise sexual maturity to potential mates. The whole women shaving thing was the result of some highly successful advertising campaigns in the early 1900s, but it was directed at women’s body hair. Since men already shave their faces, they were already buying razors.

      I do agree that both sexes face sexism/gender issues, but when you spout a bunch of pseudo-psych nonsense to support that…in fact, it seems to me more to suggest that we DO still need feminism, after all.

      Like

    3. Veronica

      I love your reply!!! and as woman, we are the only ones who can actually have kids, sure it’s two to make one, but we have babies because we are a woman.

      Like

    4. jeremiah8777

      My feelings exactly

      Like

    5. Erin

      What a beautiful example of mansplaining.

      Like

    6. Lucy

      Senior management jobs: How would you describe a CEO or COO? What image do you think of? Generally someone driven and ambitious, aggressive and persuasive, someone to be taken seriously. Unfortunately, many people don’t associate those characteristics with women and it’s extremely difficult for women to be taken seriously in those positions (especially if they are more “feminine” than others). So although feminism is what got them there in the first place, you’ll see women CEOs being quick to declare that they’re not feminists because apparently that comes with some other agenda that would detract from their credibility. Of course the job should always go to the most qualified person, but women rarely make it that far as from an early age, they are taught that these do-or-die, tough, iron-fisted jobs are not meant for women.

      Comedy shows: I don’t think you’re really answering the right question… it’s more “why aren’t there more prominent women comedians?” or, in regards to your comment, why aren’t women being called to those shows as much as men are? Yes, there are booking schedules and whatnot but why do they ask primarily men to be on the shows?

      Dieting products: That’s exactly it! Women are expected to care about their weight while men aren’t. There’s constantly the pressure to be skinnier and curvier. Why should women care so much? Why can’t they be confident in their own bodies? Because we’ve been told we’re not good enough to be “desirable” to men. (which I suppose ties into your “mating” argument)

      Sexualization in ads: Yes, unfortunately sex does sell but if it’s SO necessary why aren’t men objectified to the same extent as women? There is a HUGE difference in “amount of instance” for lack of a better phrasing and I’m sure you know that. There are just as many women shoppers (probably more… I don’t know the stats).

      Clothes: Yes, we generally dress in ways we think look good. But I think the question that’s being asked is more: do you feel obligated to wear certain things for others? To portray an acceptable image? I agree that we naturally seek other’s approval and this could also be a self-confidence issue, but women tend to have more self-confidence issues. In regards to “covering up because you feel intimidated by a man looking at your body”… this is very much referring to rape victim-blaming where raped women are often asked “what were you wearing” when they report rapes. Clothing should never indicate “consent” of any kind towards sexual behavior but I won’t continue on the subject since I don’t see any indication that you believe otherwise. ๐Ÿ™‚

      Shaving: Actually, women were perfectly “acceptable” and attractive without shaving for quite some time before a company decided to change things around and tell women that they HAD to shave to be attractive in order to sell their razors. Since then, it’s the “norm” but it shouldn’t have to be. The general expectation is that women are completely hairless save their eyebrows and the hair on their head. Even if your “mating” ideas are, that’s not natural!!!!

      Pink: Regardless of what it used to mean, it currently symbolizes femininity. Colors should be for everyone! Who’s to say if a baby girl can’t wear blue or a baby boy can’t wear pink?!

      Children: Yes, having children is “the purpose of life” etc etc, but it’s not an inherent trait. Some people just don’t want kidsโ€“men and women alike! It’s easier for men to get away with that desire, however. Many women I go to school with express confusion over how to pursue their career and start a family at the same time, feeling obligated to have children even if they don’t want to. Also, another point to note is that if women don’t look after their kids while working, they’re criticized whereas men don’t face the same fate. I’m not sure I understand your last sentence.

      Mirror: It’s not all about looking appealing to the other sex… often times women have to make sure they DON’T look appealing to men so they don’t deal with sexual harassment.

      Pay gap: Yes, even in the western world, it’s CLOSE to being equal but still not there. Unfortunately, close isn’t good enough when it comes to equality.

      I admit I don’t know much about domestic abuse which is why I didn’t respond to that comment.

      Overall, you seem to give too much credit to biological factors. As much as it would makes things easier to understand, not everything is that simple.

      Like

  24. Sarah S

    Just based on some points expressed above – It’s because of feminism that women can choose to be housewives or stay at home mothers and can choose to do jobs that females have historically done instead of having no choice to do them. When I left school at 16 in 1995 to go to college it was still assumed that, as girls, we would mainly be secretaries and nannies and nurses etc etc. Whether that was our aspiration or not and that was, I repeat 1995! It’s because of feminism that eventually men will be able to choose more freely to be stay at home dads. How many dads would love to have a paternity leave as long as or almost as long as a woman’s? At the most they can only have that if the women goes back to work which is fantastic but still leaves one parent alone to do the job for the majority of the day. Feminism has meant that men can be nurses, secretaries, nannies. Yes they still might get some digging but it’s meant that men who might not be inclined to be “real men” can choose more freely to not be. Feminism hasn’t been just about making women more equal to men but it’s also allowed men to be more like their true selves. If they don’t want to be the bread winner, they don’t want to do all the DIY and not into sports, that’s ok. This is only a very small part of what feminism has done that hasn’t been mentioned.

    Just because there is an extreme group of feminists giving feminism as a whole a bad name doesn’t mean the whole thing needs to be jacked in.

    Like

    1. tteclod

      At college in 1995, and you assert that the assumption was that women would become “secretaries, nannies, and nurse?” Surely you jest. I graduated one year before, and no such assumption existed. Granted, few of my engineering class had the skills or temerity to endure a STEM career, and many of those that did fled to IT when the engineering career became difficult, and most that remain in engineering 20 years later are men, but as a business owner who spends significant time at home whilst by wife chooses to pursue her career (her CHOICE, I’ll remind you), I can assure you that my expectation of the women occupying seats at my engineering alma mater was that they would pursue lifelong engineering careers.

      In summary: you lie.

      As for men’s freedom to pursue their heart’s desire: we like the DIY work women eschew. Those of us who disdain sports have substitute interests just as “manly” to our thinking – for us mastery of a skill or trade or profession is its own reward. We do not judge other men for mastery of any good thing: that is the purview of women.

      Regarding your gender’s infighting: we don’t care. We ignored “feminist” blather, we’ll ignore “anti-feminist blather” with equal apathy. Only, leave men out of this discussion. You haven’t the faintest idea what we desire.

      This helpful message is brought to you by The Patriarchy: advancing civilization for more than 10,000 years.

      Like

  25. Francesca

    Reblogged this on Deeper breaths: a life in transformation and commented:
    This!

    Like

  26. Christina C (@ChristynaCC)

    This are article just misses a few things , Women Against Feminism is against MODERN Feminism mostly in the West . These women know what Feminism is , its what its morphed into that they against/dislike and reject . Since these women are young they observe what is seen in their social circles at High School or College level and what they see in Social Media. While there is some amount of strawmanning and misconceptions. They judge Feminism by other feminists actions.
    WomenAgainstFeminism is not only blog out there there are many that are Pro Equality without Feminism .

    Like

  27. depicus

    In your drive to further your objectives you forget that many men also live in terrible conditions. Let’s spare a thought for the husband of the women killed by her parents who was also beaten badly, the Afghanistan male children raped or the child soldiers of Africa who are forced to kill their own family members.

    None of these events should be acceptable.

    Like

    1. mittja

      They shouldn’t. But, really, feminists sparing a thought for men, when there are so many important (pseudo-) issues to bitch about? Come on…

      Like

    2. Karen Alex (@karen_alex)

      That is correct. And that is in accordance with Feminism.
      Because Feminism stands for equality.
      And you are right. When equality does not exist then many people suffer.
      Including the husband who lost his wife and child.
      But this is digress a little bit. There are many horrors in the world.
      The issue on the table here is feminism.

      Like

  28. Piixiie Tolan

    There’s a difference between equality and feminism, feminism makes it a world where women are better than men we are NOT better than men we are the same, you can tell me our bodies hold the children and we birth them too, but without men we are nothing we, our children are nothing we are all the same and should be treated as such
    Sexism against men is WRONG just as its wrong against women and that’s all I have ever seen with feminism
    Feminism is wrong
    Equality is right

    Like

    1. mittja

      Simply excellent.

      Like

    2. Karen Alex (@karen_alex)

      Incorrect. Feminism by definition stands for equality between sexes.
      Therefore, by definition feminism cannot stand for women being better than men.
      That is illogical.

      femยทiยทnism
      /หˆfemษ™หŒnizษ™m/
      noun
      noun: feminism

      the advocacy of women’s rights on the grounds of political, social, and economic equality to men.

      Like

    3. Tara

      You’re just having a battle against the word but the definition of the word is not what it seems. Some words can be confusing, I understand. Take the to the word suffrage for example. One might assuming that if someone has suffrage they are suffering while in fact they’re not. Just as one might assume feminism means superiority for woman, when in fact, it does not. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/feminism If you’re an anti-feminist and yet pro-equality you are an oxymoron.

      Like

    4. Gabriel

      Feminism is not about female superiority. If you can’t understand that, then the problem isn’t feminism, the problem is YOU and your lack of reading comprehension skills and/or the fact that you’re too busy sponging up whatever men tell you to pick up a book in the first place.

      Like

    5. David

      I have thought the same thing for so long. I just couldn’t put it together as well as you did. Thanks. Equality is the way forward.

      Like

    6. Sue

      I disagree, Feminism gave women rights when they had none or very few and they were programmed by the patriarchial society to ‘obey’ men. Its not about not including men (extreme sides of feminism there or a smaller group within the group) but letting men know that they can no longer rule with their primal power over women, through intimidation, psychological, emotional and pr physical abuse where at one time (and sadly even these days) people were conditioned to turn a blind eye.

      Just open your eyes to what is happening in the world. I just opened the news online yesterday to see several stories that show that men are still preying on women. One case of a young women walking home was raped by a man. Does this EVER happen to a man???? NEVER! Point in case. Many men act like animals and because sadly there are many men that act that way, women do need protection, hence laws in place that do protect women in western society, but those laws are not enough because again many men do feel some kind of entitlement over women’s bodies. My own Father was physically abusive as well as emotionally abusive, I was also attacked by a stranger when walking home from being out with friends and I wasnt even alone I was with another female, luckily we got away. This does NOT make me hate men for I have compassion in relation to their struggles, I dont see myself as a victim, what I see is that many men have serious problems that make them feel it is okay to take from women without having respect for women. This is a reality even in your western culture.

      If you think that it is as simple as sexism being an issue, your view is skewed as while discrimination happens daily sadly on EVERY level of society due to different people’s in built predgudices the issue of men dominating over those weaker than them is a problem that has existed since day dot!

      I agree sexism should not be tolerated but neither should racism or ageism etc etc, but those things pale into comparison compared to how the majority of men have been ingrained to treat women.

      Like

  29. Lynbo

    A Women’s Rights Activist is not the same as a Feminist. The former will speak up in those places where it needs to be heard, where it can change archaic perspectives and protect women’s lives. The latter seems more interested in man-bashing in her own backyard. You cannot empower women by emancipating men, it is one ofthe most counter-productive attempts at changing the way society operates.

    Like

    1. Rowena

      Fully agreed.

      Like

    2. Karen Alex (@karen_alex)

      Feminism is not about emancipating men.
      I am really sorry you think that.
      Its about equality. It is that simple.

      Like

    3. sarahklum

      It’s odd those same women “the feminists” who castrate men at every turn are also the first to complain “where are the real men”. News flash lady you killed them all.

      Well not all I know a few still. They are macho, proud and strong, have opinions and know how to treat a lady.

      Like

    4. Ruby

      I wanted to disagree. I myself have worked in human rights for many years and am a women’s rights activist, I also identify as a feminist. I work with many young and old women and men – who also consider themselves both. Never in my life have I ever ‘man based’, but rather have worked alongside, men and women to address human rights abuses and gender inequality in communities around the world.

      I always feel so confused, why everyone spends so much time arguing and getting caught on disagreement of what people identify as, as why not just get on with trying to make the world a better place.

      Like

  30. Faye

    So the point of this article is that I do not need feminism, but some still do to a degree.
    We’re not against women having rights/the vote/freedom, it’s just that now we’ve gone too far in ‘this country’ to the point where I now no longer have a choice or freedom to be the woman I want to be. I will never have the luxury of choice that my mother did 30 years ago. Neither women OR men can afford to support themselves alone or choose not to work, women cannot choose to be demure or submissive without being told it is wrong, women cannot choose to say they need a man in their life without being told they are wrong. All choice to be what we want is being forcibly removed by some women making decisions on behalf of the rest.

    Like

    1. Tara

      Wait, so feminists aren’t letting you be submissive? What are they doing, submitting you into not being submissive? That makes my head spin.

      Feminists are fighting for your right to choose, they might vocally let everyone know they will not be submissive but no one is forcing you to join them. Make your own choices, that’s the purpose of the movement, don’t get it twisted.

      Like

  31. ramune tunes

    Hi, Thanks for your thoughtful post. I’m an engineer in high tech, musician, and a songwriter- and a woman too. I think you might enjoy some of my four short blogs related to women in media.
    http://ramunetunes.wordpress.com/

    Like

  32. sewellsaga

    Reblogged this on Sarah-Jane Sewell and commented:
    Absolutely fantastic blog post!

    Like

  33. patrickgraham58

    equality = best for everybody. I have benefited from feminism, and I am a comfortably off, white, late middle aged man…

    I do resent the word being cheapened/dismissed by those who have no understanding of our UK and US history and the international picture, this article needs to be stuck inside the minds of those who dare to forget the long and ongoing struggle.

    Like

    1. mittja

      Oh, yeah? FYI, not every man has benefited from feminism. Let’s not forget about those men who kill themselves because they are excluded from their childrens life.

      Like

  34. Tom

    I agree with everything you say, and feminism is a must, it should be called equalitism because it’s about both sexis being treated equally. And I know as a white middle class man I get it pretty easy. BUT men also look in the mirror and see themselves through the eyes of woman who look at us and judge our attractiveness, or peers who judge our wealth.

    I’m sorry I don’t want to belittle the cause I believe in it too. I just had to point that out.

    Like

    1. mittja

      You will find that your skin and your class won’t help you when your wife wants out and wants to take your children with her.

      Like

    2. Georgia

      Sounds like you’re referring to Egalitarianism.

      Like

    3. sarahklum

      And I will add it should if it wants to survive. Learn the difference between rights and wants. One of the most asinine comments i hear coming from modern feminists is “my right to birth control” when what they mean is I demand “free” birth control. If they want to survive they need to stop grinding the political axe and face real women’s suffrage.

      Today they claim war on women by the “republicans” and yet every complaint they make from equal pay to whatever is equally done by the “democrats”. But today in the west Feminism is all about bashing men and a political agenda that they can’t even be truthful in the simplest of context.

      Why I am not a feminist I am a freedom fighter

      Good post but feminists of today are on the wrong path and that is why I too and not a feminist I am a freedom fighter.

      Like

    4. Fergus

      I believe the movement is egalitarianism.

      Like

  35. Johnny

    You’re right. Too bad that feminists are in the West and not in Pakistan

    Like

    1. mittja

      There is a reason feminists stay in the West.

      Like

    2. sarahklum

      There are real feminists all over the world. Look to Naked Jihad we have over a million members including many muslim countries. That includes Pakistan. ๐Ÿ™‚

      Like

  36. pacman

    Your response to “women against feminism” IS to equate women living in third world countries where basic justice is in very limited quantity. Be it women, minorities, poor people or your any garden variety WEAK entities, the society cannot protect them, full stop. This is a pretty lame argument and nothing to do with lack of feminism, just plain old weak third world society.

    Like

  37. Michael

    I’m pretty sure just about everybody, feminist or not, is against the actual cases of patriarchal sexists cultures you talk about, and for the same reasons, including people who would identify as a “woman against feminism”. They are not against woman’s rights, or just basic human rights like what you are talking about, they are against these privileged first-world blogging femtrols, of which, by reading this single blog entry, you seem to be an exception to. Thank you for that.

    Like

    1. sarahklum

      Women against feminism are against feminism because it has lost it’s way. Feminists in America and the west have adopted a radical political agenda. They no longer stand for womans rights. An example is how NOW is all over “republicans” because they think people should pay their own birth control. Since when is free birth control a right?

      Look at the “so called war on women” and be honest. The Democrats attacked a woman IE Sarah Palin and even called her daughters (Both the teen and preteen) whores and sluts. Wouldn’t that be a war on women? They attack every conservative woman.

      Feminism was so women could “choose” their own path in life. So women weren’t only moms but could work in any job they choose. But today NOW and the women who claim to be feminists attack any woman who “chooses” to stay home. So we go from one predefined role to another. That doesn’t sound like choice.

      Where are modern feminist leaders denouncing the treatment of women under sharia? Nowhere that is where. They no longer stand for equality today. Nope feminism today in the west is about a political ideology and their own single role bullshit. The women who started this movement would be disgusted by todays feminists and organizations like NOW.

      Feminist today are even so stupid they can’t tell a right (life, liberty and pursuit of happiness, the right to free speech and to own firearms.) from the want for “free birth control for all women”. See they are all over hobby lobby and the company for choosing to not pay for certain kinds of birth control. Here are your rights.
      1) Stop buying at hobby lobby.
      2) Don’t work for hobby lobby if you don’t like the benefits
      3) That is about it..
      These are not your rights
      1) Demand someone else pay for ANYTHING for you
      2) Tell others they have no rights and demand free stuff

      See the difference? I hope so. Because modern western feminists can’t see it. Maybe they are that stupid? I doubt that. But they are that bent on a political agenda.

      That is why so many young “educated” women run and I mean RUN from feminism. We don’t want to be cast with their ilk. I am not a pawn for a false war on women. I am a warrior for the real war on women and true womens rights worldwide.

      I hope you can now see the distinction.

      Like

  38. Dee

    Reblogged this on 40again's Blog.

    Like

  39. esboella

    the girl on the bus was shot not because she was a woman but because she supported the USA who were invading Muslim lands, this is the problem with feminism it is full of crap, many in Pakistan can’t afford to educate their son never mind there daughter. they don’t want to be westernised they have their own culture and are hapy with it they don’t need some white middle class women telling poor brown women what to do.

    Like

    1. punjabifunivines

      What are you talking about. The girl in bus was a student and raped by 3-4 men in a bus, Whole Indian protested against those criminals and Judiciary of India changed law to punish those people. i know all this because i am an Indian and i was in India at that time. that girl was not shot she was raped and then she was in hospital after few days she died undergoing emergency treatment in Singapore.
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Delhi_gang_rape Read this ..

      Like

      1. sarahklum

        “There were six others in the bus, including the driver, all of whom raped the woman and beat her friend. The woman died from her injuries thirteen days later while undergoing emergency treatment in Singapore.”

        From your own source 6 men gangraped, and beat this woman to death. They also beat her male friend nearly to death as well. Had this been a purely muslim country the men wouldn’t even be tried in court. They would still be free today. Why? Because the male wasn’t muslim and the female was JUST a female.

        Need proof? http://shariaunveiled.wordpress.com/2013/09/26/19-year-old-gang-rape-victim-to-receive-200-lashes-and-6-months-in-jail-in-saudi-arabia/

        Just one of 1000s of examples. She gets gangraped in a muslim country the men are not tried in court, receive no punishment and the woman gets 200 lashes and six months in jail.

        Where is NOW? Where are modern feminists on this issue? No where!

        Like

    2. sarahklum

      So muslims can’t accept some people have different opinions and resort to violence as a first choice. Unless of course she would have been an armed soldier in which case they’d have shown their cowardice.

      Lame excuse to harm an unarmed innocent because you feel justified by the actions of someone else.

      Further more you are WRONG. She was beaten and gang raped as was her male friend. When the men were asked why they said it didn’t matter she wasn’t muslim so it wasn;t a crime. They went on to say bring forward 4 male witnesses to prove anyone raped her. She had NO value to them because she was female and had even less value because she was female and non-muslim.

      Get your facts straight before making such nonsense claims as this.

      Like

  40. esboella

    As for the girl in Niger, slavery exists fro millions in Africa man and women, why no mention of the men why just the women?

    Like

    1. mittja

      Excellent point. Because they are sexists and can’t help themselves. The suffering of men and boy’s simply doesn’t exist for them.

      Like

    2. sarahklum

      Would you like a real answer?

      Feminists in the west would NEVER stand up for a man. Men to them are a subspecies to be castrated like dogs. All slavery is wrong. No human being can own another. No one has that right.

      One more fact the “slaves” are all owned by Muslims. I have been unable to locate a single source where Christians in Africa own slaves or take slaves. But that is for another post.

      Like

  41. esboella

    Boko Harem abducted 200 school girls and 80 schoolboys, the boys were never mentioned, the wider issue of the civil war was not mention it was made out to be an attack on women, but it was the women of the enemy who killed their women,

    That is why I am against feminism it is full of lies and twisted and distorted shit.

    It loves anecdotes which mislead but avoids representative facts and figures which tell the true story

    Like

    1. Andrew

      When talking about those 200 schoolgirls and 80 schoolboys, of those two groups which one do you suppose had most to fear being raped? Of those two groups, which one had the most reason to fear being sold into sexual slavery? Of the two groups, which one had to fear the punishment for being both christian and out of compliance with islamic standards of acceptable gender attire and deportment? The case of the schoolboys was woeful, let us never doubt: separated from their families, at risk for being punished for not conforming to the standards of a religion they don’t believe in, etc. But the girls are at much higher risk for violence of many kinds, and why is that? Because islam is a male dominated religion that reviles women and considers them second class citizens and a necessary evil. And that patriarchal point of view is what feminism stands squarely in opposition against.

      Like

      1. Traverse Davies

        Boko Haram kills boys on a regular basis. They murder them wholesale, not selling them into slavery, simply and brutally killing them. I used to believe in the idea that rape could be worse than death, but that simply isn’t true. So long as there is life there is room for hope. Once you are dead there is no room for anything.

        Like

      2. sarahklum

        “I used to believe in the idea that rape could be worse than death, but that simply isnโ€™t true.”

        Rape IS worse than death. You have to live with the rape where if they kill you it’s done.

        Ask my GF Michelle. She will tell you she wishes the men who raped her had killed her. She says it would have been a merciful thing to do. That from an actual RAPE VICTIM. So rape IS worse than death.

        Like

  42. esboella

    Your comment is awaiting moderation. = so some people are more equal than others? What about the man or woman who is denied a voice by a powerful woman?

    Where is the equality?

    Like

    1. Shannon

      “Your comment is awaiting moderation.” You’ll find this to be standard across most online forums and blogs when you try to post a comment on something. This statement is not usually a way for authors to censor comments on their articles so that only comments they agree with show up, it’s to ensure that comments are respectful and appropriate for the article and it’s topic. Surely by your comment simply showing up you realize that the author did not intend to use her power to deny your voice? I hope you can see that.

      Like

    2. Nytonial

      Well your comments here ๐Ÿ™‚ so not moderated out in this case.

      Many feminist posts have a strict banning procedure for any with opposing opinions, luckily this one seems fair…
      so far…

      It really puts the whole “professional victim” status on a blogger if they have to block every attempt at a discussion. Again I’m glad that, at least this one platform, the free exchange if ideas is practiced.

      Like

    3. Susan

      Look at society as a whole, how many powerful women do you see denying ‘men a voice’ yes it does happen, but it is not usual or common.

      All you need to do is look at the big picture of life, have had some life experience to know that your example is uncommon and not a prevalent problem in society.

      Power, wealth and elitism has been the domain of men just look at multi national corporations, the mainstream media and anywhere there is money and power. 9 times out of 10 a man is in charge and it is usually a boys club to boot.

      Like

  43. Sam H

    If Feminism stood for equality it wouldn’t be called feminism.
    If a man stood for masculine-ism* you say they only support men.
    Feminists just want all women to be equal to other women, not equality for all.

    Like

    1. Karen Alex (@karen_alex)

      Um, what? I am still shaking my head.
      I am sorry, this does not make sense at all.
      It is equality between sexes. Not equality within a sex.
      Feminism also means that men should be treated equally to females.
      In mathematical terms, its symmetric.

      It seems pointless arguing its etymology. It has a definition.

      femยทiยทnism
      /หˆfemษ™หŒnizษ™m/

      noun
      noun: feminism

      the advocacy of women’s rights on the grounds of political, social, and economic equality to men.

      Like

    2. Nytonial

      defiantly true, I recently posted asking the 90% of feminists to identify themselves as humanists. That way this gender war can end at true equality.

      Like

    3. MM

      It started out being called Feminism because FEMALES were the ones being denied rights, such as the right to vote or own property. In much of the world this is still the case. In much of the world FEMALES do not have the same rights as men.

      Like

      1. sarahklum

        And these same “feminists” are silent on the real inequality that still exists.

        Like

  44. Julia Yo

    I am a feminist and I actually think most people would agree with the aims of feminism. Where I see the struggle happening is how the message is delivered. Feminism on the internet, despite its claims to promote freedom, equality, compassion etc is often delivered in an elitist, aggressive and restrictive manner.

    Take the term “racism”. When in the comments section of an article on cultural appropriation, someone points out that people of all ethnicities can behave in a prejudicial manner to each other but uses the word “racist” instead, feminists leap all over that person screaming, “Oh my god. That is do dumb. Do you have google? Use it. That’s not what racism means. No one of colour can be racist, you idiot.” Who wants to be on the end of a scathing and ridiculing exchange? How is that conducive to learning or shifting your opinion? Plus, the current definition of racism is not the truth. It’s a theory. No one is right here. We all have opinions and some opinions might be more helpful to living the good, just life than others.

    Take #notallmen. I actually witnessed this conversation on Facebook. My friend updated her status with “I always hope that CIS gendered dudes are just being parodies of themselves but no, they are just being CIS gendered dudes.” And a CIS male friend of hers commented ” My men’s group is actually challenging a lot of my stereotypes of CIS dudes”. Chaos ensued. Feminists were saying things like “now is not the time to be saying that”and “do I sense a #notallmen in here?”and “This is exactly the kind of behaviour we’re talking about hating. Nice work!” I felt very uncomfortable reading this, as quite frankly, the way they were talking to him seemed like bullying to me. Eventually my friend said ” When someone shout outs about the group that is oppressing her, that’s not the time to say, I am not like that.” But do you see what she’s asking? If I say “I always think that pink people are being parodies of themselves but no, they are just being pink people” and you’re a pink person who does not act that way, it is going to be very hard for you to keep quiet. What my friend was asking for was empathy. She wanted her suffering to be acknowledged. We’re not yet clear about how the idea of sexism being institutionalized actually intersects with how individuals act. But it seems to me if you experience a prejudicial or hateful experience at the hands of several members of one group of people and you believe that part of what is driving that behaviour is cultural, it is not helpful to make blanket statements about that group, why not say “hey, these individuals acted this way, and I think it is driven by our cultural notions of blah, blah, wouldn’t it be cool if everyone who felt the same way worked to change those cultural ideas that are contributing to these individual behaviours?” I wanted to contribute my point of view to this facebook discussion but I didn’t because I was too scared. It didn’t feel like safe space for differing view points. And that is what I think is driving people away from feminism.

    Like

    1. vicbriggs

      *I just wanted to make a quick mention regarding racism, as you are quite right: that way of expressing the term is seldom used and when used often misunderstood. I agree that anyone – no matter what their “race” – can be fairly seen to be racist if they judge others and make sweeping statements about individuals, groups of individuals and/or nations on the basis of their skin colour or ethnicity alone. It may have started off as a concept in the western world, but that does not mean that racist behaviour and language should be acceptable from people who do not fit into what is deemed to be the “white” paradigm. (Incidentally, I see race as a social construct rather than a biological reality – have written about this in the past – but since we are social beings, just because something is a social construct, it does not make it any less real for those who have to deal with the consequences of its application) The lines are blurred between xenophobia and racism, and unfortunately, throughout the world, there are examples a-plenty of both.

      Like

    2. GirlPower101

      well said

      Like

    3. Nytonial

      What do you think about Humanism?
      Not to force a label, but the very meaning of feminism… well… what do you think masculanism means?
      You seem to be arguing for true equality, and I’m sure that if a strong Humanist movement existed many more would join. Leaving the modern “feminism” in its current hate speeches against men. And the men unable to identify themselves, socially, as feminists, will be much more willing to join a less threatening and female dominated label.
      please tell me what you think, could humanism be the equal ground for us?

      Like

    4. Lain

      I think the Internet could drive many people away from any number of things. I think the Internet is giving a strange, distorted view of a lot of things. The Internet is full of stupid nonsense like that Facebook comment-war. Every comment board is basically full of comment slap-fights.

      On the other hand, from another point of view from the Internet, a lot of women get things like rape or violence threats and things like pictures of their faces photoshopped to look beaten up sent to them, they get sworn at and called all kinds of lewd names. This is pretty common. Ask any major female blogger/Internet presence, ESPECIALLY if they speak about women’s rights, gender issues, or topics like that. If you get a picture of your face beaten up or a bunch of lewd comments consistently from a certain group, and one member of that group says “I associate with that group, but I’m not like that!” you’re probably also going to be pretty defensive.

      Like

  45. Will

    I’m not an MRA, nor a feminist. I’ll admit you had me until, “Perhaps, take a second to consider this too: …”

    You compared the highly questionable “pay gap” nonsense to the very real oppression faced by Women (and Men) in the 3rd world.

    You seem like an intelligent, considerate person that can put yourself in someone elses shoes. Take it a step further, put down the feminist identity label for moment and consider why so many Women here and abroad reject that label. Think of the associations.

    Think of Anita Sarkeesian, Valerie Solanas, Andrea Dworkin. You may say, “But they don’t represent all feminists!”. That may be true, but they still carry the label. No one denounces them or their extreme viewpoints.

    I’m not unfamiliar with Gender studies. I know feminism means a lot of different things to a lot of different people. That said, consider yourself an American girl, you love your Man and play video games with him. Then you come across feminist frequency and hear Anita Sarkeesian talk about how male game developers are sexist because of how they portray Women. But you like video games, you know she is full of shit. Would you want to take the label “feminist”?

    I could give other scenarios. My point is the label has some very negative associations. A lot of Women don’t want any part of it. Now again consider, do you think all of these #womenagainstfeminism are ignorant, and or, ungrateful for the suffragettes who secured their rights in West? Of course not. A cursory scroll through their tumblr photos would show that a lot of them are intelligent, young Women.

    I’ll conclude with this. Feminists should give strong consideration to what Susan B. Anthony and the suffragettes might think of their current struggles. I think they would tell Anita Sarkeesian to get a real job and stop being a profession victim. I think they would abhor the rape culture movement and the misandry it breeds. Think about it.

    Like

    1. Kyla

      I am a stay at home mum and I love playing video games, sometimes with my husband and sometimes by myself, and when I watch my female sorcerer tottering about in high heels and hot pants (a design element I am unable to change! !!!) I get more and more annoyed until I don’t want to play so maybe these western feminists aren’t so bonkers after all. Yes, yes, if I don’t like it I don’t have to play it well thanks a bunch, I’ll just have my game options made narrower and narrower because my tastes don’t matter.

      Like

    2. Alex

      Those are some really good points! Consider also how a lot of political feminists choose to excoriate Camille Paglia for her views on how the sexual revolution of the 60s has affected our culture in a way in which sex is everywhere yet it is taboo to want to teach girls how to deal with unwanted attention that an oversexed culture has bred.

      Like

    3. Karen Alex (@karen_alex)

      I think inequality comes in many places in the world.
      Actually, I am a software developer and the sexism was appalling.
      I was sexually harassed at work. I was even asked, shockingly what colour my vagina was.
      Do I think women should not use the software we wrote because of that?
      It doesn’t even deserve answering. It is unrelated. But for those that may need clarifying, of course not.
      I agree. The word Feminist does have negative connotations. But like most things in this world, there is always a little bad mixed in with the good.
      Why focus on that.
      As women (and men) we should support each other and equality.

      Like

    4. Nytonial

      good points, I’ve seen anita’s stuff…. i think power-stations can be powered by manure or BULLSHIT now cant they ๐Ÿ™‚

      I just made a post containing a request for the 90% of “feminists” to correctly identify themselves as humanists. As I said, it is not only the correct term for equality, but will alleviate many of the problems you mentioned, regarding what Anita whats to achieve (genderless video games), against the suffragettes movement of true equality.

      Like

    5. Lain

      I think that your example of Anita Sarkesian is a terrible one. Anita may have a whole lot of viewpoints that I don’t agree with, and her videos might be pretty terrible, but there is not agreeing with someone’s opinion, and then there is getting sending that person a whole bunch of rape threats, threats of murder, and pictures of her face photoshopped to look beaten up because you didn’t agree with her opinion. This is actually something fairly common that happens to female bloggers or anyone who tries to discuss these sorts of issues online, actually. Cliff Pervocracy, just as one example, noted that he got considerably less flak online and his opinions shot down less with insults like “Stupid bitch shut up you don’t know anything” etc when he started presenting as male.

      Like

    6. MM

      Huh?

      Like

    7. ammanders

      With all due respect, I have some issues with the statement “…rape culture movement and the misandry it breeds…” feminism and misandry are competing ideas. Rape culture negatively affects both men and women. Women should not need to feel scared to wear what they want, to say no to someone and have that answer be respected, or to be worried that they will be blamed for their own rape/assault if they go to officials. By that same token, it should not be assumed that all men are rapists, that only men can perpetrate rape (and that only women can be victims), or that men are not capable of controlling themselves when a woman says no. Feminism is for both men and women in that it attempts to make rape, by anyone against anyone else, a crime that doesn’t in turn blame the victim. Women are most often victims of sexualized violence, and feminism seeks to eradicate this statistic for the benefit of both men and women such that women no longer have to live in a state of fear (as a woman, I can assure you it is ever-present, especially on college campuses), stereotypes of men as rapists are eradicated, and so that both male and female victims of sexual violence can be protected and not blamed. I think a lot of the trouble with feminism is people not really understanding the real threats women face and that feminism seeks to improve the lives of everyone. Literally everyone.

      Women against feminism are absolutely not ignorant, and extreme viewpoints with the label of feminism are actually frequently denounced for the reason that it deters young women away from the true ideals of feminism. Personally, I think the problem comes from ideas like “I can’t be a feminist because I like video games” or “I can’t be a feminist because I am a stay-at-home-mom” or “I can’t be a feminist because I need help opening jars.” Feminism is about choice and very real threats to women’s well-being (a pay gap, for instance, that can amount to thousands of dollars lost over a number of years http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/labor/news/2012/08/16/12029/fact-sheet-the-wage-gap-for-women/). Feminism means you can choose to be a working mom OR a stay-at-home-mom, you can enjoy video games as a young girl without being given a Barbie instead (or vice versa, if you want the Barbie!), or you can ask for help with opening jars but not be criticized if you feel like opening one on your own (These are exaggerations, but you get the point).

      Feminism is about breaking down the barriers and stereotypes that say men are this and women are this, and allows people to do what they want because they like it and not be criticized because “that’s for that gender”. I think often discussions about feminism are seriously missing this, and the fact that women have very real obstacles they face. Feminism has been and continues to be instrumental in improving the quality of life for both women and men.

      Like

      1. sarahklum

        The wage gap is because most women are timid and won’t negotiate. My Michelle did and so did I. While she got more money I got more vacation time and some other perks. Teach your daughters to speak up and negotiate when it comes to jobs.

        Like

  46. Cassandra Orhan-Jones

    Beautiful and so on point it hurts that young girls growing up in western society have no idea that their “givens” are only dreams in other girls hearts.
    X

    Like

  47. Darlene

    Well said. Thank you.

    Like

  48. Rhi

    I am a proud part of WAF.

    None of the people (there are men and women in the group) are in any way “uneducated” about what feminism means. This kind of dismissive attitude is juvenile and short-sighted. It basically translates to “If you’re smart, you’re a feminist.” which simplifies down to basically “Anyone who isn’t feminist is stupid and uneducated.” Not true at all. We actually seem to know more than the vast majority of feminists who routinely flood the group who usually have no idea who women like Steinem, Dworkin, MackInnon, Kennedy or Solanas are, basic facts about the real statistics where things like the supposed ‘wage gap’ or rape in the US are concerned.

    I personally was raised by a Second Wave hardcore feminist who proudly displays her Steinem books on the shelves. Please think and perhaps get to know some of us before you cry “uneducated!”

    None of us deny there are issues in other countries, but modern western feminism is ill-equipped to deal with it, nor does it even particularly want to. Feminism has always been a white majority and if you look at it’s earliest stages, the Suffragettes wanted the vote for middle and upper class white women only. And it hasn’t gotten much more inclusive since. I spent hours in feminist groups and websites and for every one story about a non-white woman or issue there was 100 about white women and white issues. Not only that but even in groups with 60,000 members those non-white posts? Lucky to top 100 Likes and 50 Comments. Posts about pantyliners and lightbulbs got more activity than posts about “Beatriz”, Marissa Alexander, Black Women in History. The websites aren’t much better.

    I also look at things like how Femen ‘helped’ Muslim women (Muslim Women Against Femen has over 16,000 members and Femen member Amina Tyler was so disgusted she actually quit). Or how feminist writer Joan Smith stated the niqab was “ridiculous, and the ideology behind it weird” and “When I see someone wearing it, I’m torn between laughing at the absurdity and irritation with the ideology it represents.” Or feminist writer Julie Blindel stated about the niqab “Its presence should be challenged as a threat to the freedom of women, not celebrated as a harmless aspect of multi-culturalism. For this is not about a simple article of clothing. It is about a symbol of the relentless subjugation and control of women.”

    This is the “open mindedness” “love” and “equality” that feminism comes to other cultures with. Not so much. Moreso ethnocentric white privilege trying to colonize other places via feminism and impose western values on them. It’s Manifest Destiny all over again, now just with a different ‘ism’ at the end to justify it.

    Yet white feminists continue to try and co-opt non-white achievements and claim them as their own. Feminists have come into the group and basically said black women owe their civil rights to feminism. It’s pretty insulting when you look at how exclusionary feminism has been to blacks, or at best, indifferent much of the time.

    Heck, feminists have tried to claim just about everything as a success for feminism.

    If you’re happy as a woman, it’s because of feminism.
    If you’re unhappy as a woman, it’s because you haven’t taken advantage of feminism.
    If you’re married, it’s because of feminism.
    If you’re divorced, it’s because of feminism.
    If you have empathy, it’s because of feminism.
    If you want equality, it’s because of feminism.
    If you want justice, it’s because of feminism.

    Perhaps most amusingly given the absolute bitter war First and Second Wave feminists fought to get *out* of their homes and to NOT have children (through fights for birth control and abortion)….now if you have children, it’s because of feminism.

    Again, think how this might make you feel as a non-white woman who feminists have basically stepped over your people and otherwise ignored your people’s issues entirely. Early feminists would not have given you the vote because you’re not white, therefore did not deserve it. And now you have some white privilege shrieking feminist trying to lambaste you online and saying you’re a selfish, immature brat for not being “grateful for feminist who did so much for you!”

    Imagine being part of a culture that had already experienced, and continues to experience, Manifest Destiny and the devastating effects it has being ‘civilized’ (“westernized”), which is what feminist insists we need to do to places like India, China and Africa. It might make you more reserved about marching in to such places and declaring them bastions of patriarchal brutality that need to bow to western, feminist liberalism cuz…feminism or death!

    Feminism does not own or have a monopoly on justice, equality, empathy, truth, honesty, love and solutions. We consider ourselves egalitarians and refuse to look at every world problem through a feminist tinted lens that inevitably ends up with every problem being ended with “….but women have it worse….” even in discussions of things like war deaths or registering for the Selective Service.

    But you’re welcome to think that we’re all simply uneducated children if you must.

    – Rhiannon

    Like

  49. tom174

    I am having a rather hard time. Apparently the definition of feminism really differs a lot. If feminism was still just the dictionary definition, really just idiots would oppose it. However, over time it has changed a lot. Look at: http://time.com/3028827/women-against-feminism-gets-it-right/
    I have and always will support human rights. If I was in India, in Pakistan, I sure hope I would be on the street demanding justice and female rights.
    I don’t kow how and when it happened. But there are a lot of prominent western feminist that have abandoned the goal equality. I don’t see a lot of feminist trying to reclaim that goal. Instead of explaining the womenagainstfeminism what feminism really is about, maybe you explain it to some of the womens studies teachers. Maybe you know Femen. One of their pictures shows a woman holding up some cut up balls. A prominent feminist activist group 2014. I have yet to see some feminist critizing them. ๐Ÿ˜ฆ

    Like

    1. sarahklum

      Exactly!

      Feminist?

      She is a warrior for women who are suffering. Feminism today is a joke and the real movement founders would be ashamed of the movement.

      She says>
      “Women being forced to walk behind their husbands, denied their vote, denied a voice, being beaten by their husbands because itโ€™s legal and the Quran says the husband must. These same women donโ€™t get a voice in the laws. They are forced to cover up, denied the ability to drive and are forced to stay in their homes and be good little obedient wives.

      Donโ€™t you think thatโ€™s a real war on women? But yet the feminist of America sit quietly and do nothing today while a real war is being waged against women today. Why is that? Maybe itโ€™s because American men will not call you a bigot or hate monger. Where Muslims will call you hateful for speaking the plain truth. Islamaphobe they say but the problem is I donโ€™t hate Islam I just see the truth in it and Iโ€™m not afraid to shine the light on it.

      I think there needs to be a new term malaphobic (the hate of men) applied to the old school feminists. Anytime somebody decides to criticize men just because they wonโ€™t buy you birth control Malaphobic!

      Like

      1. tom174

        seems our comments have been deleted ๐Ÿ˜ฆ

        Like

      2. sarahklum

        Comments often get deleted when one can’t debate facts. It’s easier to ignore them and hence part of the problem with “feminism today”. They would rather kick on a political bent and call republicans monsters and woman haters for not paying for abortion on demand and birth control than face the real issues of today. The real women’s suffrage.

        Like

      3. sarahklum

        PS If you look I think you will see these comments haven’t been deleted.

        Like

      4. tom174

        then i was just blind and i apologize

        Like

  50. Sawyer

    Hello.

    I read your post and although I see where you were going with this, I have to agree with the growing number of women who wish to dissociate themselves from modern feminism. I know what feminists are trying to do, but it’s translating poorly in the real world.

    If you were to be honest, if you were to look at the modern feminist movement objectively, you’d see that it really is fully of double standards and hypocrisy. Women against feminism does a great job of highlighting a lot of them. Abortion, career choice, dress choice, sexual morality and the issue of how men should treat women, vice versa, and HOW WOMEN TREAT WOMEN is just a few of the hotbed issues that have divided so many women on the issue of modern feminism.

    You talk about women in foreign countries who are going through hell and it’s true, they are. But what about the little boys? What you guys fail to realize is that what’s happening in these countries is not a feminism issue, it’s a humanitarian issue. When you are in a society that encourages violence against your family members, this goes deeper than women’s rights. All of the children over there, boy and girl, began as something fresh that could be molded into something good and healthy. What in the world happened to the young boys that they could look into the eyes of the girl they grew up with, or a father can look at his female progeny and throw acid over her and feel justified in doing so? That type of teaching is another form of abuse and simply looking at the results in the little girl’s life completely ignores the over arching issues: These people need serious prayer, serious help. Giving women rights in a country that teaches such oppression is putting a bandaid over a gaping wound.

    Not only that, your very post reeks of privilege, that of a white woman. You begin your post by saying this, “The year is 2014. You are a white Western woman …” and from there, you embellish on a wonderful list of opportunities that a white woman in America can easily enjoy.

    A white woman in America.

    Even now, those things that you listed are not available for every woman in America much less other, less advantaged countries. And it’s not primarily because of gender, it’s because of race or socioeconomic class.

    What many modern day feminists fail to realize is that the white feminism movement of the 1900s did not save the world for all the women in America. For a long time, and even now, minority women, mainly black and hispanic women, were notably excluded from it. True, there were some white women who were inclusive, but for the most part, many white women were products of their time and saw their darker counterparts as inferior or less important. Some “feminists” were more than willing to throw black and hispanic women under the bus to gain voting rights for themselves.

    White women gained the right to vote in the 1920s. Great.

    But guess when I, a black woman, gained MY right to vote? 1964, a whole 40+ years later, and it wasn’t through the feminists movement, it was through the civil right’s movement. (I know you might be thinking of the voting rights act of 1869/70, but Jim Crow basically made that law of non effect.)

    I wish feminists would stop acting at though it was the work of past “feminists” that gained the rights for all women everywhere. They ignore variables like ethnicity that completely and totally changes a woman’s experience. White feminists claim that they were put on a pedestal. Well, black women were put underneath it. White feminists claim that they were treated like glass, well, black women were treated like dirt.

    Read this article. It’s a great example of exactly what I’m talking about; the differences between black women and white women. And how, because of our experiences, we see things differently.

    http://peri-peteia.livejournal.com/340736.html

    As hard as white women had it, black women had it and still has it 5x worse. Yes, even in this day and age. Does that fact make the struggle of white women in the past any less important? No, but the women’s right movement didn’t encompass the whole of every woman’s experience then and it sure as heck doesn’t do so now.

    The bottom line is this:

    Feminists have sought freedom so hard that not only have they alienated men, but now they’re beginning to alienate other women too. As women, we have a unique place in the world; we are natural home makers, we are the gender that God chose to carry life, we are more communicative, visual, etc. But feminists have looked at men and envied them their liberties and vices and have gone beyond seeking reasonable freedoms. They now seek androgyny, ignoring our special and unique difference in favor of homogeneity, all the while expressing disdain and lack of care for any and everyone save those who agree with them whether male or female. Feminists now seek to do the very things that they scorned in men, ignoring the fact that it was wrong when men was doing it and still wrong when women are doing it, using the banner of absolute equality to justify the fact that they are now rolling in the same cesspool that men have always waded in.

    Women do deserve basic, reasonable human equal rights under the law, the same as men, but there must be a balance. You can’t go from one extreme to the other, because you’re just trading one set of chains for another.

    You are obviously passionate about women’s rights, so use it in a positive way. It’s futile to bash women who are against modern feminism for, admittedly, valid reasons. Rather, try to change what modern feminism is conveying to the world. Ceasing to look at the world solely through your white female privilege would be an amazing place to start. Try to look at the world through a black woman’s eyes or a hispanic woman’s eyes. I know it’s much easier said than done, but make an effort. Read literature about women that has nothing to do with white women

    If you want to be a better feminist, if you want to show these women that all feminism isn’t what they think, publish posts about why there isn’t more ethnic representations of female beauty in the media. Publish posts about why beauty is limited to blonde hair and European features. Post about how wrong it is that women in Asia are having reconstructive surgery on their eyes to look more white. Publish posts about why little black girls prefer having white dolls because they see their black dolls as ugly or less attractive. Publish posts about foreign countries and ALL the children being tormented over there, not just the girls. Publish posts about why holding on to your virginity is actually, I don’t know, GOOD. Post that respecting your body and waiting for the right guy rather than spreading it all over like butter over bread is just as good a choice, if not better, than treating your body like the runway at LAX, opening it everyone who wants to land. Prove that you care more about women’s emotional, mental and physical health than you care about sticking it to men and emulating their behaviors, the same one that assisted in the breakdown of the American family.

    THEN you’d be respected for stepping outside of your bubble, for being humanitarian and TRULY caring about women. That way, even if women didn’t respect the feminist movement, they’d respect you.

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    1. sarahklum

      “But guess when I, a black woman, gained MY right to vote? 1964, a whole 40+ years later, and it wasnโ€™t through the feminists movement, it was through the civil rightโ€™s movement. (I know you might be thinking of the voting rights act of 1869/70, but Jim Crow basically made that law of non effect.)”

      And my wife and her family didn’t gain the right to vote until 1968. Native Americans men AND women were even behind the other people of color of this nation. Your point is? Oh and they were NEVER included in the 1869/70 laws. They served in military long before they had the right to vote, right to a speedy/fair trial. They had no rights in this nation until 1968.

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      1. Sawyer

        I’m not sure if I’m mistaking the tone of your message or not, but if I am, I apologize, but it seems very upset, and angry and even disrespectful as though the hell that my people went through is nothing compared to what Native Americans went through.

        This is not a pissing match to see whose ethnic group was treated the crappiest by white Americans. We could do that, but that would be pointless.

        The POINT is that the feminist movement that everyone is glorifying did not save the world for all women, is not the life changing event that pulled all women out of a life of legal, political, and social invisibility.

        The POINT is that ethnic experiences changes everything and many, many times supersedes gender matters. It’s only when your ethnicity itself doesn’t hold you back that you can base your life off of gender issues alone.

        As an African American, I’m not the one you should be angry with. I’m certainly not angry with you.

        So, instead of reading about the black experience and countering with how the American Indian experience was so much worse, try to identify the POINT that I’m truly trying to make which is that ethnic experiences and the experiences of our people completely changed the game for us.

        The POINT is to stop glorifying feminism. It had its place, has its place, but women and men have the right to disagree with it and the things the feminists believe… and not be labeled as sellouts, brainwashed, or upholding the white patriarchy of the times.

        That’s my point.

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      2. sarahklum

        My point was in a way backing yours up. Feminism only benefited white women in America. You brought up the fact you were still in the dark ages after feminism supposedly freed all women and declared the movement a huge success. I pointed out even after the people of color won their rights it was still not equal rights for all it was once again only equal for one group of people.

        I am not angry with you but I made a point to your point. Sorry if you disagree with that point or if it caused you hurt feelings. It was only the truth. If feminism really was worth it’s weight in utter dog shit they would be still fighting now for the oppressed women else where in the world.

        Anything shy of that is lip service.

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      3. Sawyer

        Oh no, it doesn’t offend me as I completely agree with you.

        I’m sorry that I misread the tone of your message.

        You’re absolutely right that Native Americans were treated like crap and like, blacks, were treated as sub humans. What’s worse, is that while things have improved for blacks, they haven’t improved in nearly the same scope for Native Americans.

        That really saddens me, you know?

        So, yes! I agree with you and I’m sorry that I misunderstood you. ๐Ÿ™‚

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      4. sarahklum

        All good. Mad props and keep fighting. While things have improved for people of color we are far from an equal and colorblind society. One day we will realize Martin Luther Kings dream, where we are each viewed by our character and not our color. (hugs)

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      5. Mina Montgomery-Matosi

        You should be saddened not only by the fact that Native American women have not access to the same opportunities as European Americans and Europeans around the globe do, but by the fact that no other women do — including African American women. One step might be to stop denoting people by the color of their skin. Calling human beings from any country reds, yellows, blacks and whites is non-sense carefully calculated by Europeans and their diaspora to hold on to power and dominate others.

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      6. jhan1969

        Notice where this conversation has gone – to squabbles between different ethnic groups within western culture. That misses a primary point of the article. You’re all getting lost in the trees here.

        That primary point is that western feminists commit a horrendous double standard by ignoring the brutal treatment of women outside of western culture.

        Period.

        Radical leftist feminists deny this accusation because, generally, for them WESTERN CULTURE is the enemy. Capitalist culture. Judeo-Christian culture. The ‘patriarchal family structure,’ etc, etc. Any enemy of western culture is generally a friend to the western radical left – which is why leftist feminists FREQUENTLY, if not always, come down on the side of radical Islamic groups, despite how these groups treat women. Remember; ‘The issue is never the issue; the issue is always THE REVOLUTION.’ For the radical western feminist, the goal is ALWAYS the dismantling of WESTERN capitalist/Judeo-Christian/Whatever culture . . . FIRST. Everything else comes a distant second.

        Then there are the less radicalized elements of feminism, and just everyday liberal women, who’ve bought into the notion that it’s bigoted or rude to criticize cultures other than their own. They’ve been inculcated with Edward Said’s premise that since westerners are, by default, blinded by their ‘oppressive’ cultures, they cannot make valid judgments about other cultures. THEREFORE – they shouldn’t.

        These women do not realize that they have every right in the world – if they so choose – to say that people like Edward Said are full of shit. They have every right to chuck off the marxist-critical theory view of the universe – which they KNOW to be inherently shaky, because otherwise, there would be way more rad-fems in the world. A lot of women may be liberal; but a lot of liberal women know the real enemy when they see them.

        Step back and take a look at the forest. This is far less about the treatment of specific ethnic groups within WESTERN culture than it is a total way of viewing WORLD-CULTURE. It is a weltanschauung that can be observed throughout leftist thought.

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      7. Mina Montgomery-Matosi

        It is disingenuous to profess to be concerned about women in distant places around the world, then push back when reminded that you have not stood up for the advancement of women of other ethnic groups in your own culture. And until you and other so-called feminists do that, you will not be taken seriously.

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      8. jhan1969

        “It is disingenuous to profess to be concerned about women in distant places around the world, then push back when reminded that you have not stood up for the advancement of women of other ethnic groups in your own culture.”

        I agree with you in spirit, but I believe this way of reasoning tends to lead to a dangerous kind of moral equivalency. The plight of women who are being buried up to their necks and stoned to death for God knows what is much worse than what what 99.99% of women are experiencing here, regardless of ethnic group. That doesn’t mean women aren’t experiencing problems HERE; it’s just a call for some perspective.

        I will posit the belief that not all problems of advancement for women of certain ethnic groups in America is due to sexism or oppression from an external force. If that was true in a general sense, then FAR LESS women from those ethnic groups or any other non-white ethnic group would be advancing the way I see them advancing. And I see a great deal of advancement in the greater NYC area where I live.

        I will instead posit the very dangerous and unheard of idea that . . . it is the cultural values within certain ethnic groups that might be holding a lot of women back. Not 100%, but a good deal.

        That will always get you called a racist, or a bigot, of course. The accepted, politically correct theorem is that social problems within ANY ethnic group are due to oppression from another group. The problems come from WITHOUT, as opposed to WITHIN. Period, end of story.

        People must start questioning this premise OUT LOUD, IN THE OPEN. The whole, strict Marxist paradigm of ‘Oppressor vs. Oppressed’ has major fault-lines. It is, in fact, holding specific ethnic groups back.

        Generally, ethnic groups that are successful wherever they wind up on this planet have a similar set of cultural values. These include Jews, Asians, Orientals, Lebanese (bet you didn’t know that), Scandinavians who migrated to America way back when, etc . . .

        1) Family
        2) Faith
        3) Education
        4) Industriousness/hard work
        5) Frugality

        It’s the Korean who moves to America, works 70 hours a week at the grocery store he bought and lives upstairs from, and eventually sends for his family. It’s the dirt-poor East Indian who works at his uncle’s Dunkin’ Donuts and eventually buys his OWN Dunkin Donuts (where HIS family works). It’s their kids who go to school together and get A’s at the SAME schools other ethnic groups go to, then go on to top-tier colleges and graduate and get jobs they work their asses off at. It’s the Eastern European Jews that came here with NOTHING and sold pickles on street corners and mended garments in claustrophobic tenements, whose grandchildren and great grandchildren are now doctors, lawyers and scientists. It’s the Armenians who fled brutal oppression who are now a valuable socio-economic group in Los Angeles.

        And an interesting thing to note is that EVERY ONE of these ethnic groups was brutally, murderously oppressed throughout history. Slaughtered, driven away by pogroms, sold into slavery. (Nearly every human on the planet can trace their roots back to slavery, since every culture on the planet practiced slavery at one point or another, and some still do. The word ‘slave’ comes from the word ‘slav,’ which Romans used to call Slavic people they’d enslaved, although the Romans held slaves from every ethnic group. Middle Eastern culture always had slavery as well). Hell, Chinese people come to America because their culture is so brutally oppressive RIGHT NOW.

        And as far as I’m concerned, if these people come here and work hard, go the proper route towards getting citizenship, put their hands on their hearts when that Anthem is sung, they’re every bit as American as I am.

        What’s NOT American, in my book, is blaming your problems on everyone else. Certain groups need to quit whining and start looking WITHIN. That’s where the truth lies. Successful cultures find the answers WITHIN THEMSELVES, their value systems. If the culture is broken, look to the value system.

        I will of course be blasted for ‘victim blaming.’ Yeah . . . WHATEVER. As a half-Jew, maybe I should blame all my personal problems on the Holocaust.

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      9. Mina Montgomery-Matosi

        Yes, your idea, that “it is the cultural values within certain ethnic groups that might be holding a lot of women back” is racially charged and dangerous; but it has been heard many times, especially by members of the far right in the United States and in other countries. And you suggest that such values as “family”, “faith”, “frugality”, “education” and “hard work” are values that are lacking in some ethnic communities but are so prevalent in others, such as yours, that they have generally propelled your members to success and stability.

        It seems that you and many others like yourself purposefully overlook the harmful and enduring effects of 300 years of slavery, of broken families from which African American males have been systematically alienated for centuries, of failed schools in still-segregated neighbourhoods throughout the U.S. and Europe, of job discrimination justified by jealously and, therefore, hatred — and often little to be frugal with after earning less than any other ethnic group in occidental societies. Hard work, you say? America was built on 300 years of the free labour of African Americans. After slavery, the crime continued with the sharecropper system during the Jim Crow era, as well as with low paying menial jobs that many other groups still take advantage of but have never fathomed doing themselves.

        It is difficult to believe that one wouldn’t know how these shameful and planned disparities came about in America and elsewhere, and they they still exist. It did not happen just by chance that two ethnic groups dominate the entire world, albeit while allowing Koreans the right to work 12-hour days to run convenience stores. But the dominating ethnic groups write the laws, print money at will, manufacture guns with obvious motives, suppress the vote of African- and Latino-Americans, redistrict communities in yet another way to maintain power, draw the lines, hem the weakened inside danger zones, decide that some ethnic groups will go to prison for 20 years for a drug offense while their own people will go to rehab for larger offenses. Then they, along with their European allies, pillage Africa of its natural resources, showing little care for starving people who want to work to survive.

        The reasons for this existential European hegemony that is practiced throughout the western world include greed, a lack of civic values, a lack of love for all of humanity, the inability to use your wide access to education for the good people other than yourselves and of the environment. One would hope that people’s faith could be used as foundation that is evident and not just as a convenient prop that does not reflect humane values.

        Finally, for people to take responsibility for their lives they must be educated, motivated and given the same chance as others are given in their society.

        The Holocaust was also un unspeakable horrible crime, as was slavery, but one day it ended. Slavery has not.

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      10. jhan1969

        It’s funny; you accuse me of ignoring slavery, while I SPECIFICALLY mentioned slavery. In fact, I spoke about it in greater historical depth than you did. You simply made an emotional argument which amounts to the fact that I should personally feel guilty about slavery, which I don’t. I never owned slaves, and I wasn’t alive during slavery in the united states. In fact, if I look far back enough, I am more than likely descended from slaves, since half of my family is from Slavic descent. (Those Romans, remember?) My point is that black people have to stop blaming slavery for social problems within black culture. It’s getting them nowhere. No matter what happens, you can’t fix your problems by blaming other people. I know that’s a hard concept for leftist ideologues to accept; but perhaps they should look more deeply into the matter rather than lash out at any threat to their worldview.

        Of course this is hard when such people have an assumption of their own moral superiority from the outset.

        And your assertion that slavery is still existent in the Unites States is pure leftist drivel. THAT’S where the crux of it really lies. You and I have completely opposing worldviews. There’s no reconciliation possible. No ‘middle.’ Just one set of ideas against another. And the most prosperous set of ideas will eventually win.

        Now which set do you think that is?

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      11. Sawyer

        The thought does disturb me though I am careful to only attribute the proper and relevant grievances to white America that they have indeed propagated. In other words, some of the disadvantages that women face around the world are cultural and cannot be laid at the feet of whites. Of course, that’s not what you’re saying, but it’s just something that I personally try to remember for my own sake.

        Also, the phenomenon that you’re describing is colorblindness. Like communism, it’s good in theory but impractical. Humans label and group things. That’s what we do, how we make sense of our world and that’s okay. The problem comes in when you start attributing more value to one thing over another when those two things are exactly the same which is the God’s honest truth in our case.

        Genetically speaking, humans are clones especially compared to the other species we share this planet with. We’re 99.999 percent identical genetically. The small percentage that we’re different explains the variance in appearance. There’s literally more genetic deviation in fruit flies.

        So, it’s okay for us to be different, to note those differences and to appreciate them. It’s not okay to put me down because I’m black, to think you’re better because you’re white, and to ignore my problems because they’re not your own or because you don’t think they affect you.

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